Stone Mountain to be Sandblasted?

[ReliableOstrich]

I think the whole movement is a little silly, and actually counterproductive in terms of really "bringing people together."

If the movement is silly, then what, if anything, would you suggest as a course of action to correct the many inequalities that still remain in America?

*i'll agree that the tactics used by various factions of the movement (or really any movement you can think of) can be silly and/or counterproductive at times.

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

If the movement is silly, then what, if anything, would you suggest as a course of action to correct the many inequalities that still remain in America?

.

I think a starting point is truly honest discussion in which one side acknowledges that despite lots of progress racism (and income inequality) is a huge problem and stops saying "Ehh, that was 50 years ago, get over it. I'M not racist..." or "Screw them, I'M a self-made man and didn't have any help, what are they whining about?"

And the other side acknowledges that there are times when poor individual choices are a major cause of said inequalities, more than racism or other external factors.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

I think a starting point is truly honest discussion in which one side acknowledges that despite lots of progress racism (and income inequality) is a huge problem and stops saying "Ehh, that was 50 years ago, get over it. I'M not racist..." or "Screw them, I'M a self-made man and didn't have any help, what are they whining about?"

And the other side acknowledges that there are times when poor individual choices are a major cause of said inequalities, more than racism or other external factors.

That's a pretty fair beginning to the dialogue. Exponentially more reasonable than much of what seems to be the general back and forth we hear all day.

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

That's a pretty fair beginning to the dialogue. Exponentially more reasonable than much of what seems to be the general back and forth we hear all day.

It'd be a start, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

It'd be a start, but I'm not holding my breath.

True. Eventually there will be a rare leader or two who realizes and can effectively communicate that in order for America to continue being the world leader, economically and socially, we must acknowledge these issues and diligently work towards correcting them. We can't become a more divided nation (income, political, socially) and expect to last another 200 years with anything close to the prosperity we've seen over the last 100 - we're on an unsustainable trajectory.

 

[TC Nole OX]

Sand blast away....this country treats black people like crap. Give the southern racists, who have turned racism into a near religion, a small taste of the pain they dish out. Take down their flags, statues, monuments, re-name their highways. Then they can protest at the intersection of Al Sharpton Boulevard and Obama Presidential Highway.

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

True. Eventually there will be a rare leader or two who realizes and can effectively communicate that in order for America to continue being the world leader, economically and socially, we must realize these issues and work towards correcting them. We can't become a more divided nation (income, political, socially) and expect to last another 200 years with anything close to the prosperity we've seen over the last 100 - we're on an unsustainable trajectory.

The sad thing is that it would be so easy to kick it off. Any president of the past 30 years could've started the conversation, but none have done so in a sincere, intellectually honest manner.

 

[tommynole3476]

(last post about this, I swear)

I appreciate Lou's response, and understand it. To some degree, I would agree that monuments like SM have no real 'power' in the sense the CBF or Swastika do, but that doesn't mean they are without ill intent. Many of these monuments were created as a direct protest to the civil rights movement, desegregation, etc; and I don't think it is possible to take those original meanings away, no matter how docile of a symbol they may seem now.

As to the larger argument of inequality, the notion that people who support the removal of confederate monuments are only concerned with that is a typical rhetorical device; as pointed out earlier, it's like suggesting someone who is fundraising for Breast Cancer, only cares about that and not some other perceived larger/worse disease, so they're original cause is misguided or wrong.

I would also say to Rocky, I think Obama is the only POTUS in the last 30 years to even try to address issues of income, political and social inequality, but has been derided by the right for 'creating hate.' Just look at the speech he gave yesterday on mass incarceration. Part of the problem is, addressing these inequities in our society will, at worst, cause division, or at best make people uncomfortable. Most don't mind change as long as, well, nothing changes for them and/or they're not made uncomfortable.

That's why in a time when scales are starting to even, ie LGBT Rights, some people think today is worse than the 90s or 80s; because they were satisfied with the status quo (as the status quo benefited them, or didn't affect them).

Which brings me back to the monuments. Symbols matter, words matter, they have very real impacts on our lives and culture. I don't think we can address all the tangible, quantifiable inequalities (not just between races) fully, without also removing the symbols that honor and represent those inequalities from our society.

 

[kc78]

For me, the removal of the Confederate Battle Flag and similar monuments is the start to the conversation. Its akin to bringing home flowers to my wife if I am wrong about something. The flowers won't solve the problem, we still have to have the conversation, the apologies, etc... but its used as a way to start the conversation, to say I'm sorry, and as an offer of peace. The calls to remove the Confederate flag are the same to me. I'm sorry for the ills that have been done to you. I'm sorry for anything I have contributed. I realize this flag is painful and should be removed. Lets do that, and now lets begin the conversation on how to move to the true next step.

It may wind up being irrelevant as both sides have to decide to move forward, but that can't happen as long as we're clinging to tightly to these damaging symbols of our shared racial past.

 

[montconole]

Sand blast away....this country treats black people like crap. Give the southern racists, who have turned racism into a near religion, a small taste of the pain they dish out. Take down their flags, statues, monuments, re-name their highways. Then they can protest at the intersection of Al Sharpton Boulevard and Obama Presidential Highway.

If those roads turn into the type of areas that usually surround MLK Street, no redneck is going to picket anywhere close.

 

[JohnnieHolmesNole]

Sand blast away....this country treats black people like crap. Give the southern racists, who have turned racism into a near religion, a small taste of the pain they dish out. Take down their flags, statues, monuments, re-name their highways. Then they can protest at the intersection of Al Sharpton Boulevard and Obama Presidential Highway.

Why do you say "black people (are treated like) crap"? Do you have any idea how much tax money is funneled to the black community each year?

 

[dmm5157]

Why do you say "black people (are treated like) crap"? Do you have any idea how much tax money is funneled to the black community each year?

Or the native American community? Money heals all.

 

[coolguy100]

For me, the removal of the Confederate Battle Flag and similar monuments is the start to the conversation. Its akin to bringing home flowers to my wife if I am wrong about something. The flowers won't solve the problem, we still have to have the conversation, the apologies, etc... but its used as a way to start the conversation, to say I'm sorry, and as an offer of peace. The calls to remove the Confederate flag are the same to me. I'm sorry for the ills that have been done to you. I'm sorry for anything I have contributed. I realize this flag is painful and should be removed. Lets do that, and now lets begin the conversation on how to move to the true next step.

It may wind up being irrelevant as both sides have to decide to move forward, but that can't happen as long as we're clinging to tightly to these damaging symbols of our shared racial past.

Really....bring home flowers to your wife. I am from NY...I think Stone Mountain is an interesting take on a very important part of American History....What is wrong if people want to honor soldiers on the losing side of a war. Some really actually fought for love of their state, their loved ones... perhaps they were afraid who were afraid that the North would come and destroy their economy, (only 2-3% of the population of the south had slaves)...which they did (carpetbaggers).

People need to read about Reconstruction and what happened there as well.

Remember Confederates were U.S. Citizens their whole lives.....Period....they personally paid for their sins....there is no reason for uninvolved people to have to pander to others when all involved in the war are dead....and have no personal influence on anything.

 

[LesClaypool]

Cite your sources regarding "only 2-3% of southerners owned slaves," please.

I don't necessarily doubt you, I'd just like to read more about that assertion if there's any data to back that up.

 

[tommynole3476]

Cite your sources regarding "only 2-3% of southerners owned slaves," please.

I don't necessarily doubt you, I'd just like to read more about that assertion if there's any data to back that up.

http://mapserver.lib.virginia.edu/php/start.php?year=V1860#11

If you divide total number of slaveholders by the entire population, that percentage is technically accurate.

But entire population includes the slaves themselves, which is just a bit misleading.

If you change it to 'free population' it becomes a little larger; but even that isn't fair, as one owner of many slaves can also have many members of their family that don't 'count' as slaveowners.

So if you pull how many families owned slaves by state, you get this (I added the %s):

MISSISSIPPI 63,015 30,943 49.10%
SOUTH CAROLINA 58,642 26,701 45.53%
GEORGIA 109,919 41,084 37.38%
ALABAMA 96,603 33,730 34.92%
FLORIDA 15,090 5,152 34.14%
LOUISIANA 74,725 22,033 29.49%
TEXAS 76,781 21,878 28.49%
NORTH CAROLINA 125,090 34,658 27.71%
VIRGINIA 201,523 52,128 25.87%
TENNESSEE 149,335 36,844 24.67%
KENTUCKY 166,321 38,645 23.24%
ARKANSAS 57,244 11,481 20.06%
MISSOURI 192,073 24,320 12.66%
MARYLAND 110,278 13,783 12.50%
DELAWARE 18,966 587 3.10%
NEBRASKA (territory) 5,931 6 0.10%
KANSAS (territory) 21,912 2 0.01%

 

[jaxnole77]

I have a legit question about your calc. Were slaves actually counted as part of the entire population? I thought they were considered property. I honestly don't recall.

 

[KelloggNole]

We have become the United States of Outraged Americans.

We started as the United States of Outraged Britons, so that's progress.

 

[tommynole3476]

I have a legit question about your calc. Were slaves actually counted as part of the entire population? I thought they were considered property. I honestly don't recall.

The link provided, makes the distinction between total population, total free population, and families. Whether the families total counts/includes slave families or not, I'm not sure, but probably not.

 

[OneNeverNoles]

Why do you say "black people (are treated like) crap"? Do you have any idea how much tax money is funneled to the black community each year?

lol enlighten us as to how much "tax money" is given to the black community every year. My check must have gotten lost in the mail for a few decades.

 

[JohnnieHolmesNole]

lol enlighten us as to how much "tax money" is given to the black community every year. My check must have gotten lost in the mail for a few decades.

If you conduct any research on "Welfare Dependency," you will see the demographic statistics on which groups receive the most funding under unemployment, welfare, Medicaid, food stamp and countless other programs. Obviously, as you note, there are many people in the black community who do not receive anything under these programs.

 

[OneNeverNoles]

If you conduct any research on "Welfare Dependency," you will see the demographic statistics on which groups receive the most funding under unemployment, welfare, Medicaid, food stamp and countless other programs. Obviously, as you note, there are many people in the black community who do not receive anything under these programs.

1) The majority of the programs that you listed are not welfare.

2) These programs and the use of them are not anywhere near exclusive to black people

 

[321Nole]

Sorry to say, but they'll have use some other means if they want to take it down. There isn't a sandblaster owner in existence that isn't 100% redneck.

 

[alphachief]

For everything "you" are offended by...I can find something "I'm" offended by. At what point do we all put back on our big boy pants, leave history to what it is...the past...and begin focusing on today and tommorow? Political Correctness will come back to bite us at some point...when the definition shifts...and it always does.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

For everything "you" are offended by...I can find something "I'm" offended by. At what point do we all put back on our big boy pants, leave history to what it is...the past...and begin focusing on today and tommorow? Political Correctness will come back to bite us at some point...when the definition shifts...and it always does.

I agree with that to an extent but the "bringing your wife flowers" analogy does make sense -- ideally perhaps we all take turns with the Men in Black memory zapper and start working on tomorrow, but that's not reality.

There are some very hurtful symbols out there - road names, flags, monuments, etc... - that never should have been erected (lulz) in the first place. Perhaps it's true, the dialog can't begin in earnest until people stop clinging to those hateful symbols -- or at least acknowledge them for what they are, though a more accurate prism of history. Leave the Stone Mtn carvings up, but make sure anyone who visits the site understands who those traitors were and the evil they wrought upon our nation - to me that's an acceptable middle ground for this instance.

But when do we get to the real conversation of fixing things....? There are a TON of hateful symbols out there and we can't spend the next 40 years worrying about them.

 

[KitingHigh]

anyone that considers Robert E Lee a trailer or evil person really needs to bone up on their history. He fought for the South out of loyalty, not for slavery. This is well documented. He freed his slaves before many northerners did.

Jefferson Davis was willing to abolish slavery and even sent emmisaries to Europe to offer exactly that.

These are honorable men who served their homeland well. The vast overwhelming majority of Southern soldiers could not give a rats hind end about slavery. They were fighting for their homeland against an invasion. This is well documented fact. They deserve to be honored.

The fight against the flag is filled with misinformation and its disgusting. We aren't happy that racists have used the flag, but they do not define it. If that was the case then the American flag and Christian cross are every bit as guilty.There is also much misinformation about flags on government grounds that went up specifically for the centennial ceremony of the civil war. These flags did not go up for racist reasons but for historical ones, at least in SC (where the CFB hung inside the state house since well before the civil rights movement), or Georgia. That some people want to claim the FL and AL flags are racist is even more laughable as they are modeled after the Saltire of the Spanish empire.

This movement is beyond ridiculous.

 

[jet06d]

I just hope a result of all this is a list of what historical events and people we're allowed to memorialize...

 

[JohnnieHolmesNole]

For everything "you" are offended by...I can find something "I'm" offended by. At what point do we all put back on our big boy pants, leave history to what it is...the past...and begin focusing on today and tommorow? Political Correctness will come back to bite us at some point...when the definition shifts...and it always does.

So thrilled to give you your first "like." Spot-damn-on.

 

[BelemNole]

anyone that considers Robert E Lee a trailer or evil person really needs to bone up on their history. He fought for the South out of loyalty, not for slavery. This is well documented. He freed his slaves before many northerners did.

Jefferson Davis was willing to abolish slavery and even sent emmisaries to Europe to offer exactly that.

These are honorable men who served their homeland well. The vast overwhelming majority of Southern soldiers could not give a rats hind end about slavery. They were fighting for their homeland against an invasion. This is well documented fact. They deserve to be honored.

The fight against the flag is filled with misinformation and its disgusting. We aren't happy that racists have used the flag, but they do not define it. If that was the case then the American flag and Christian cross are every bit as guilty.There is also much misinformation about flags on government grounds that went up specifically for the centennial ceremony of the civil war. These flags did not go up for racist reasons but for historical ones, at least in SC (where the CFB hung inside the state house since well before the civil rights movement), or Georgia. That some people want to claim the FL and AL flags are racist is even more laughable as they are modeled after the Saltire of the Spanish empire.

This movement is beyond ridiculous.

Downey: I don't understand... Colonel Jessup said he ordered the Code Red.

Galloway: I know but...

Downey: Colonel Jessup said he ordered the Code Red! What did we do wrong?

Galloway: It's not that simple...

Downey: What did we do wrong? We did nothing wrong!

Dawson: Yeah we did. We were supposed to fight for people who couldn't fight for themselves. We were supposed to fight for Willy.

Yeah, they might have been good men, but they committed treason against their country. Their country was nice enough not to execute them for it, but we sure as shit shouldn't raise monuments to them.

 

[coolguy100]

Downey: I don't understand... Colonel Jessup said he ordered the Code Red.

Galloway: I know but...

Downey: Colonel Jessup said he ordered the Code Red! What did we do wrong?

Galloway: It's not that simple...

Downey: What did we do wrong? We did nothing wrong!

Dawson: Yeah we did. We were supposed to fight for people who couldn't fight for themselves. We were supposed to fight for Willy.

Yeah, they might have been good men, but they committed treason against their country. Their country was nice enough not to execute them for it, but we sure as shit shouldn't raise monuments to them.

Some thought that MLK committed treason because he stood up to the govt...

Robert E. Lee fought for loyalty to his state...they believed that states rights superseded the national govt.
If he was an honorable man...and was forgiven by the U.S. Govt....what is the problem if they were honored....the war was 150 years ago and the elected officials and citizens that lived then decided they were to be honored, but now we know that they were wrong...and all of it was racially motivated...only racially motivated...not from respect, not for valor, not that they were loved, but just racial concerns. All if it was racial...not one other reason....

Those people knew who they were honoring and the reasons...we don't.

 

[OneNeverNoles]

anyone that considers Robert E Lee a trailer or evil person really needs to bone up on their history.

Ok, I did as you suggested and "boned up" on my history.

I remained with Gen. Lee for about seventeen months, when my sister Mary, a cousin of ours, and I determined to run away, which we did in the year 1859; we had already reached Westminster, in Maryland, on our way to the North, when we were apprehended and thrown into prison, and Gen. Lee notified of our arrest; we remained in prison fifteen days, when we were sent back to Arlington; we were immediately taken before Gen. Lee, who demanded the reason why we ran away; we frankly told him that we considered ourselves free; he then told us he would teach us a lesson we never would forget; he then ordered us to the barn, where, in his presence, we were tied firmly to posts by a Mr. Gwin, our overseer, who was ordered by Gen. Lee to strip us to the waist and give us fifty lashes each, excepting my sister, who received but twenty; we were accordingly stripped to the skin by the overseer, who, however, had sufficient humanity to decline whipping us; accordingly Dick Williams, a county constable, was called in, who gave us the number of lashes ordered; Gen. Lee, in the meantime, stood by, and frequently enjoined Williams to lay it on well, an injunction which he did not fail to heed; not satisfied with simply lacerating our naked flesh, Gen. Lee then ordered the overseer to thoroughly wash our backs with brine, which was done. - Testimony from Wesley Norris, a slave of Robert E. Lee's

Let the record show that KitingHigh does not consider the above story to be an example of evil.

 

[Rhino_nole]

The fight against the flag is filled with misinformation and its disgusting. We aren't happy that racists have used the flag, but they do not define it. If that was the case then the American flag and Christian cross are every bit as guilty.There is also much misinformation about flags on government grounds that went up specifically for the centennial ceremony of the civil war. These flags did not go up for racist reasons but for historical ones, at least in SC (where the CFB hung inside the state house since well before the civil rights movement), or Georgia. That some people want to claim the FL and AL flags are racist is even more laughable as they are modeled after the Saltire of the Spanish empire.

"As a people, we are fighting to maintain the heaven ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race"- William Tappan Thompson, designer of the Confederate battle flag.


Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens, speaking at the Athenaeum in Savannah, Georgia:

The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with; but the general opinion of the men of that day was, that, somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. ... Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the idea of a Government built upon it—when the "storm came and the wind blew, it fell."
Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition.


CBF has no history in racism huh?

Like I said earlier about the American flag and the cross: It's my opinion that the US has made great strides to better the image of the American flag and the injustices that occurred while it flew. Similar to the cross and religious people changing the image hijacked by the KKK when burning crosses. There's been attempts to reach across the aisle and change any image issues.

 

[tommynole3476]

Interesting article on Lee's exploits in the Civil War. Basically, while in PA, Lee oversaw the hunting, killing and/or capturing, and eventual reselling into slavery of free black men they came upon.

http://www.post-gazette.com/news/st...orth-a-military-disgrace/stories/201306300221

The "slave hunt," as contemporaries and later historians called this phase of the Confederate invasion, would last as long as Gen. Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia remained in Pennsylvania. It ended only when the defeated Southern troops retreated back to Virginia after the Battle of Gettysburg.

Belem's AFGM reference to Col Jessup seems quite poignant, as the article shows that out of one side of Lee's mouth he spoke about how evil it would be to fire upon and kill non-combatant civilians, while somehow his men did just the opposite when it came to free black people.

Another interesting article that I've posted before that challenges one of the causes of the Confederacy, which is that the South was fighting for states' rights, when in actuality they were fighting against them.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/poste...numents-are-wrong/?postshare=3641435760958475

Perhaps most perniciously, neo-Confederates now claim that the South seceded over states’ rights. Yet when each state left the Union, its leaders made clear that they were seceding because they were for slavery and against states’ rights. In its “Declaration of the Causes Which Impel the State of Texas to Secede From the Federal Union,” for example, the secession convention of Texas listed the states that had offended the delegates: “Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Wisconsin, Michigan and Iowa.” Governments there had exercised states’ rights by passing laws that interfered with the federal government’s attempts to enforce the Fugitive Slave Act. Some no longer let slave owners “transit” across their territory with slaves. “States’ rights” were what Texas was seceding against. Texas also made clear what it was seceding for — white supremacy:

We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.

Despite such statements, neo-Confederates erected monuments that flatly lied about the Confederate cause. For example, South Carolina’s monument at Gettysburg, dedicated in 1963, claims to explain why the state seceded: “Abiding faith in the sacredness of states rights provided their creed here.” This tells us nothing about 1863, when abiding opposition to states’ rights provided the Palmetto State’s creed. In 1963, however, its leaders did support states’ rights; politicians tried desperately that decade to keep the federal government from enforcing school desegregation and civil rights.

 

[OneNeverNoles]

Tommy, those articles make the Confederacy look terrible so I don't think those count as you "boning up" on your history.

 

[KitingHigh]

Tommy fool, you left this part out:

Lee told his soldiers, once the invasion of Pennsylvania was under way, that "no greater disgrace could befall the army," or discredit the Confederate cause, "than the perpetuation of the barbarous outrages upon the unarmed and defenceless [sic] and the wanton destruction of private property that have marked the course of the enemy in our own country."

Obviously this was. It a view held by Lincoln or his generals.

One never knows
First off that story probably isn't even true. There are numbers of versions of it and according to some
Articles Lee denied that any of it ever happened. Even so, if it did, it wouldn't have been that unusual for any slaveholder including nearly all of our founding fathers. Yes, slavery was atrocious, but just as much so is the current effort to make it seem that Southerners were somehow worse than their Northern counterparts and in that effort refusing to look at persons as a whole and exaggerating the aspects around slavery. Other examples, like I mentioned are people flat ignoring well documented and verified reasons for the CFB going up on state capitols that are not related to racism. Some idiot on this board claimed the Confederat constitution didn't protect freedom of speech. It does, the bill of rights were all incorporated in that document. Since they weren't an afterthought like in the U.S. Constitution they are written as articles rather than amendments. People have claimed that the confederate constitutions only changes related to slavery. Also false, it has numerous changes including many restricting the governments power to tax and spend. It including line item vetoes, and made amending the constitution more easy for the states. It required bills to relate to one single subject and outlawed any punitive tariffs or favored industry subsidies. Things that the American constitution should have. The list goes on and on. People like you ignore the numerous real and documented aspects of the Confederacy that are not about slavery while embellishing that aspect. Yes, slavery was a component, but it was by no means the only one.

Rhino, you are entitled to your opinion that the American flag and cross have somehow redeemed themselves from the numerous atrocities, including slavery, murder, tyranny, rape,mchild molestation, interment camps, and their long standing use representing the KKK and other hate groups, everything the CBF did bad times about ten. But if find that opinion illogical and obtuse.


Anyway, yall enjoy your lynchings. Maybe one day you will realize that your mindset and prejudices against southerners are no different than those people use to defend racism and other forms of hate. Own your hypocrisy.

 

[tommynole3476]

Lee told his soldiers, once the invasion of Pennsylvania was under way, that "no greater disgrace could befall the army," or discredit the Confederate cause, "than the perpetuation of the barbarous outrages upon the unarmed and defenceless [sic] and the wanton destruction of private property that have marked the course of the enemy in our own country."

Kiting, you fool, I kind of addressed this in the original post.

Belem's AFGM reference to Col Jessup seems quite poignant, as the article shows that out of one side of Lee's mouth he spoke about how evil it would be to fire upon and kill non-combatant civilians, while somehow his men did just the opposite when it came to free black people.

First off that story probably isn't even true.

It's not a story, it's several documented in newspapers, journals, etc via eye witnesses at the time. READ.THE.LINK.

Anyway, yall enjoy your lynchings. Maybe one day you will realize that your mindset and prejudices against southerners are no different than those people use to defend racism and other forms of hate. Own your hypocrisy.

So.incredibly.offensive. Nah, nah, nah, this ain't about hating southerners, don't get it twisted bub. I'm southern, but that isn't the group I'm condemning, and you know it.

 

[OneNeverNoles]

One never knows
First off that story probably isn't even true.

hahaha ok man

 

[dmm5157]

Rhino, you are entitled to your opinion that the American flag and cross have somehow redeemed themselves from the numerous atrocities, including slavery, murder, tyranny, rape,mchild molestation, interment camps, and their long standing use representing the KKK and other hate groups, everything the CBF did bad times about ten. But I find that opinion illogical and obtuse.

When having a discussion, it's always a good idea to throw out that the other person's opinion is "illogical and obtuse." I'm going to start using that one with my co-workers and see how that goes over. Thanks KitingHigh.

 

[Rhino_nole]

When having a discussion, it's always a good idea to throw out that the other person's opinion is "illogical and obtuse." I'm going to start using that one with my co-workers and see how that goes over. Thanks KitingHigh.

Especially when the talking point is neither "illogical and obtuse." Such an excellent form or communication. Next time I'm on the stand testifying I'm going to tell the defense attorney that.

"Hey man, your form of questioning is illogical and obtuse and I will not answer."

 

[KitingHigh]

hahaha ok man

Lee denied it personally and refused to even address it publicly. Knowing what we know about the man, there is no good reason not to believe him considering the accounts are about as credible and consistent as those in the Dalvin Cook case. Biographers differ on their belief that it happened and if so, happened as described. It is not consistent with what we know about the man. That along with his denial is good enough for me to believe it unlikely to be true.

 

[KitingHigh]

Especially when the talking point is neither "illogical and obtuse." Such an excellent form or communication. Next time I'm on the stand testifying I'm going to tell the defense attorney that.

"Hey man, your form of questioning is illogical and obtuse and I will not answer."

Way do deflect, and ignore the valid and undeniable evidence I posted showing why his point was illogical and obtuse. I get it. Some people like the American flag and hate the confederate one. That doesn't excuse them from ignoring that the reason they claim to hate the later applies even more to the former. If the CBF is bad because of atrocities that people committed under it, than the American is also bad because of the far more numerous atrocities that occurred under it. That is logical. To say otherwise is illogical. The inability to understand that is obtuse.