NAACP demanding same. They object to any imagery of the Confederate Generals. Wow. Should we just pretend that certain things in history never happened?
Stone Mountain to be Sandblasted?
- Thread starter JohnnieHolmesNole
- Start date
Removing monuments does not equal removing history.
If the recent debate over the CBF and Confederacy taught us anything, it's that we need more history taught in schools, especially more accurate history.
What if the funds to create Stone Mountain were paid for in part by the KKK? What if Stone Mountain was birth of current iteration of the KKK?
If the recent debate over the CBF and Confederacy taught us anything, it's that we need more history taught in schools, especially more accurate history.
What if the funds to create Stone Mountain were paid for in part by the KKK? What if Stone Mountain was birth of current iteration of the KKK?
Interesting history, I'd never really looked into Stone Mountain before. Ties with the KKK, in particular.
I think, as @tommynole3476 said, there needs to be more history taught. I'm against altering Stone Mountain, even for all that it appears to stand for, based on what I've briefly read. It's one thing to change a flag. It's another to alter a 100 year old monument and natural feature.
I think, as @tommynole3476 said, there needs to be more history taught. I'm against altering Stone Mountain, even for all that it appears to stand for, based on what I've briefly read. It's one thing to change a flag. It's another to alter a 100 year old monument and natural feature.
That's the kind of shit ISIS does.
Come on people.
Come on people.
Perhaps they would rather have a depiction of Sherman's march to the sea in its place..
After college, I moved to Atlanta and lived there for a little over five years. I had a couple guys from work that I became good friends with and a group of us went out to Stone Mountain one day and ended up staying late. I didn't know anything about Stone Mountain and they kept telling me about this laser show that I had to check out.
What they didn't tell me was the carvings on the mountain "came to life" and that when that happens, large groups of people start singing "dixie" and begin letting out rebel yells. I looked around at them and they were rolling. I said something like "I think I've made a mistake" and they about passed out from laughing.
What they didn't tell me was the carvings on the mountain "came to life" and that when that happens, large groups of people start singing "dixie" and begin letting out rebel yells. I looked around at them and they were rolling. I said something like "I think I've made a mistake" and they about passed out from laughing.
One thing I also find interesting in this whole discussion of removal of monuments/memorials is this:
Let's say Monument A was erected in 1950 by State B's legislature. That state's legislature was elected without the voice or representation of those who might object to or be offended by such a monument. Fast forward 65 years, and now the offended party has a voice (legally speaking, can vote), and is pressuring their legislature to remove said statue.
How is that anything like ISIS?
And how is that any more offensive or less noble a cause than the original cause behind the monument's erection? *giggle*
Let's say Monument A was erected in 1950 by State B's legislature. That state's legislature was elected without the voice or representation of those who might object to or be offended by such a monument. Fast forward 65 years, and now the offended party has a voice (legally speaking, can vote), and is pressuring their legislature to remove said statue.
How is that anything like ISIS?
And how is that any more offensive or less noble a cause than the original cause behind the monument's erection? *giggle*
Hugo Black was a supreme court justice and KKK member.
lets bulldoze the supreme court.
lets bulldoze the supreme court.
Agree, because that makes just as much sense. And I am curious. How does one "erect" a granite mountain? With a really really big truck to move it into place?
I have absolutely no dog in this fight and don't want to see a Confederate flag anywhere ever again. But if this becomes a toe in the door, nose under the tent, etc. movement, where does it stop?
Example: Does the City of Arlington VA change its name because it was built on the site of Robert E. Lee's ancestral plantation home, which was Arlington? Do we change the name of Arlington National Cemetery? Some of you may not be aware of the details of a lot of history, but gosh, don't let that stop you.
Arlington National Cemetery was deliberately placed on the seized plantation of General Lee to punish him for leaving the Union and leading the Confederate Army. I'd say he was well punished, but who knows. Oh, and he was not given the right to be buried there either. His story should be told and understood.
At what point does this campaign wipe out history? Is it not important to understand all the history of our country, both good and bad?
Bingo on the "where does it stop?" query. Do we rub Washington off of the quarter? Is the Jefferson Memorial blown up?
I don't think they should do anything to Stone Mountain, but it IS creepy that there is a monument to confederate "heroes" there. I've been there 3 times and it never feels quite right to me. A bit unsettling.
Pretty fun place to go on a family vacation though. I really enjoy the hike down the mountain.
Pretty fun place to go on a family vacation though. I really enjoy the hike down the mountain.
We have become the United States of Outraged Americans.
I think it's sad when those from generations full of apathy deride interest in matters of inequality or injustice.
Well, when you come across someone on this board who is from a "generation full of apathy", why not identify them and detail their apathy to inequality or injustice?
Well you goldmom are certainly from a generation full of apathy, or are we closer to age than you've let on before? As for your specific actions as a teen and young adult, I'm obviously not aware of those details.
But I am aware of US History, and I know that while past generations have had their good days, they also have had numerous days of apathy and inaction that allowed racism, inequality and injustice to fester, grow, and become entrenched and acceptable in our society.
The recent debate over the CBF is a great example. Its racist, hateful meaning has always been known; everyone knew in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and so on. But it's the "outrage" by younger generations that is derided on this board that began its purging now. Your generation's apathy is what allowed BS excuses like "southern pride" or "states' rights" to be accepted and entrenched as cover for racists.
People like to wear their lack of outrage for this issue or that one as a badge of honor on this board, and to be quite honest, it disgusts me. I can't imagine being so cynical and selfish that I would be completely impervious to empathy, and definitely not to the point, I'd be proud of it. But you do you; nothing I'm going to say is going to stop you.
But I am aware of US History, and I know that while past generations have had their good days, they also have had numerous days of apathy and inaction that allowed racism, inequality and injustice to fester, grow, and become entrenched and acceptable in our society.
The recent debate over the CBF is a great example. Its racist, hateful meaning has always been known; everyone knew in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and so on. But it's the "outrage" by younger generations that is derided on this board that began its purging now. Your generation's apathy is what allowed BS excuses like "southern pride" or "states' rights" to be accepted and entrenched as cover for racists.
People like to wear their lack of outrage for this issue or that one as a badge of honor on this board, and to be quite honest, it disgusts me. I can't imagine being so cynical and selfish that I would be completely impervious to empathy, and definitely not to the point, I'd be proud of it. But you do you; nothing I'm going to say is going to stop you.
As a member of the generation full of apathy, and since you are so aware of US History, where is your outrage on this board against the US Gov't and its flag for what can only be described as genocide against Native Americans? Hmm, I must have missed that thread.
It's my opinion that the US has made great strides to better the image of the American flag and the injustices that occurred while it flew. Similar to the cross and religious people changing the image hijacked by the KKK when burning crosses. There's been attempts to reach across the aisle and change any image issues.
The same can't be said about the CBF. A lot of people sat by and allowed its imagery to be hijacked by racist, Neo-Nazi hate groups during the Civil Rights movement. While black people were being dragged from their houses, having their churches burned, being hung, murdered and beaten from groups that proudly flew the CBF, there was nothing being done during those times to change that imagery. No one was spouting "heritage not hate" during desegregation, no one was screaming "this is our history" when flying the flag on their cars while also holding "go home n-word" signs.
Until the people who truly believe the CBF is all about their heritage get up and change the imagery of their flag, then it will be associated w/ a festering boil of a group that tarnished it for decades.
"Hey, I'm trying to raise money for Breast Cancer Awareness, would you mind..."
You: My {insert relative} died from prostate cancer, why aren't you raising money for that?!?!?
PS I bet you won't like the company you're keeping when it comes to that US Flag argument either...
I'm not as certain how I feel regarding this one. There is a definite history of Klan activity, even easements granting them rights to have Klan activity there. The finishing of the monument also coincides with much of the Civil War rebirth during the 60's while protest of civil rights movements were ongoing. I can understand the argument, but I have less of an incentive to see something like that destroyed vs simply removing a flag from a government property that shouldn't be there. I think there should be monuments to both sides of the civil war. I don't really know what all is at Stone Mountain as I've never been there. I'd be happy to see a Civil War Museum that reflects all sides, both good and bad of the various issues.
Stone Mountain has already proactively said they aren't removing any battle flags. They aren't going to remove the worlds largest releif carving, nor should they.
And despite what some of you believe the flag does not mean racism to the majorty of people, much less most of those who display it. It wasn't long ago that black people would display the flag with just as much pride as white people, and some still do as shown by the black participants in the recent rally in Ocala.
And despite what some of you believe the flag does not mean racism to the majorty of people, much less most of those who display it. It wasn't long ago that black people would display the flag with just as much pride as white people, and some still do as shown by the black participants in the recent rally in Ocala.
Honest question- Do the NAACP and United Negro College Fund change their names in the next few years?
I'm surprised they haven't changed them earlier, but with recent events it surprises me they haven't come under the crossfire.
I'm surprised they haven't changed them earlier, but with recent events it surprises me they haven't come under the crossfire.
I'm a baby boomer, which means that I was a child during the time when the last vestiges of Jim Crow segregation were in full bloom. I would have voted to end it but the voting age was 21 then. All a kid could do at that time is see with their own eyes the meanness and ignorance so common among Southern white folk - "the grownups".
I went to Catholic school, and had to take the city bus home after school every day here in Jax. I remember the really swell bus driver telling all of us who got on the bus that first day of school to get ourselves to the back of the bus cause you Catholics can sit back there with the n*****s, cause you are all the same. In a way that was pretty transformational for a 7 year old because I've had an intolerance for intolerance since then. I remember my Mom crying when we got off the bus and told her what had happened, and she was afraid the bus driver would do something to us if she complained about what he said.
And since I went to (Catholic) high school with all races beginning in 1963 I guess I lived in a world where things changed so much, with the passage of the CRA in 1964. Silly kids at the time we believed that would change things. Was that apathy? I don't know. A lot of my generation was worried about things like Vietnam at the time. Slackers. Our President got murdered on network television. Our friends who didn't have a college deferral had to go to some country we knew little about and some were coming home. Dead.
You have absolutely no idea about how bad things were back then unless you look at the old black and white film of Bull Connor, high pressure water hoses, and dogs because that was real and it was how things were. Apathy, injustice and intolerance? If you only could appreciate how different things are now. You never saw all city pools shut down so black children could not be in a pool with white children, so all children had to suffer. No, we can't go to the Hendricks Avenue pool anymore because the city shut it down. Sorry. Can't get a drink at the lunch counter anymore. It's closed. All to perpetuate ignorance.
In the 70's and 80's we were busy starting our own families and working alongside people of every race in our offices and I guess we just treated each other all the same - like co-workers.
Was that wrong? In fact, it seems like things have gone very well in the arena of all folks from all points living and working side by side until a certain community organizer was placed in office and couldn't wait to start creating hate. Unraveling fifty years right in front of our eyes.
Some in certain age groups seem to resent the fact that they missed the "opportunity" to be turned away at a five and dime lunch counter. Believe me they should be grateful because it was a really, really ugly thing. So they create a fantasy where they are subject to hate and injustice. That's pretty sad.
Should we go back and yell at our great grandparents for not stopping Hitler's death camps? Plenty of this so-called apathy around. Yeah, I'm old. And I have seen what hate does. Gee, I've seen some of that right in this thread.
U B U is fine with me. Wait, is that apathetic?
I went to Catholic school, and had to take the city bus home after school every day here in Jax. I remember the really swell bus driver telling all of us who got on the bus that first day of school to get ourselves to the back of the bus cause you Catholics can sit back there with the n*****s, cause you are all the same. In a way that was pretty transformational for a 7 year old because I've had an intolerance for intolerance since then. I remember my Mom crying when we got off the bus and told her what had happened, and she was afraid the bus driver would do something to us if she complained about what he said.
And since I went to (Catholic) high school with all races beginning in 1963 I guess I lived in a world where things changed so much, with the passage of the CRA in 1964. Silly kids at the time we believed that would change things. Was that apathy? I don't know. A lot of my generation was worried about things like Vietnam at the time. Slackers. Our President got murdered on network television. Our friends who didn't have a college deferral had to go to some country we knew little about and some were coming home. Dead.
You have absolutely no idea about how bad things were back then unless you look at the old black and white film of Bull Connor, high pressure water hoses, and dogs because that was real and it was how things were. Apathy, injustice and intolerance? If you only could appreciate how different things are now. You never saw all city pools shut down so black children could not be in a pool with white children, so all children had to suffer. No, we can't go to the Hendricks Avenue pool anymore because the city shut it down. Sorry. Can't get a drink at the lunch counter anymore. It's closed. All to perpetuate ignorance.
In the 70's and 80's we were busy starting our own families and working alongside people of every race in our offices and I guess we just treated each other all the same - like co-workers.
Was that wrong? In fact, it seems like things have gone very well in the arena of all folks from all points living and working side by side until a certain community organizer was placed in office and couldn't wait to start creating hate. Unraveling fifty years right in front of our eyes.
Some in certain age groups seem to resent the fact that they missed the "opportunity" to be turned away at a five and dime lunch counter. Believe me they should be grateful because it was a really, really ugly thing. So they create a fantasy where they are subject to hate and injustice. That's pretty sad.
Should we go back and yell at our great grandparents for not stopping Hitler's death camps? Plenty of this so-called apathy around. Yeah, I'm old. And I have seen what hate does. Gee, I've seen some of that right in this thread.
U B U is fine with me. Wait, is that apathetic?
The fact you even try to compare this slight to that of minorities during your day tells me all I need to know about you, how, and what you think.
I have, why do you think I'm so passionate, does this make the rest of your post moot now?
This is an astoundingly ignorant, and very telling, statement.
But not completely surprising. I've never been confused or unsure of your prejudices.
I hope you're referring to me, because I'd be disappointed if my feelings towards you were not clear.
Things are certainly better than they were in the 50's. While black people are still killed by others for simply being black, it happens less often. We've all integrated in society to an extent, but it still has a long way to go, and not just with race, but with sexual orientation, nationality, etc... We're all tribalistic by nature. Nothing will ever change that instinct, however we can attempt to educate ourselves so that it has far less sway.
There are tons of discriminations still around today from all races and types, to all races and types. We still have a long way to go and if we pretend like its better so we should just go on with life, then we miss a chance to continue to improve ourselves.
I don't have the answers, but I want to talk, I want to learn, and I want us all to agree to work towards a better tomorrow. When I see chances to advance that dialogue, I will push for it.
There are tons of discriminations still around today from all races and types, to all races and types. We still have a long way to go and if we pretend like its better so we should just go on with life, then we miss a chance to continue to improve ourselves.
I don't have the answers, but I want to talk, I want to learn, and I want us all to agree to work towards a better tomorrow. When I see chances to advance that dialogue, I will push for it.
I've put you on ignore and I expect you to return the favor. Have a nice day.
I do think this is a more nuanced argument than the flag. The flag as it has been used for decades is a symbol, it's a placeholder image for racism and segregation.
I don't know that despite the history of Stone Mountain, the carving itself has that same power. It's a monument to people on the losing side of a war, in a state that lost the war. It's a part of history, and if it's properly managed, that doesn't have to defacto be a racist affront. Especially since Stone Mountain as a place does not reinforce that aspect of it's history.
I've been to the Stone Mountain laser show numerous times, and I've never experienced it as a celebration of racist/redneck culture. Maybe I just wasn't there on the "right" night.
If the park allowed itself to BECOME a vestige for that type of sentiment and behavior, I would support opposition to that. I don't think that's what Stone Mountain park represents to people, they don't appear to encourage it in any way, and if they continue to do so, I don't think it needs to come down.
In other words, unlike the confederate flag, the Swastika, or other similar things...I don't see the power it has. And that's a GOOD thing. There is no reason to GIVE something meaning that isn't imbued with it right now. As long as Stone Mountain is able protect that, I don't think it's all that problematic.
It's an object lesson as to what can happen when Americans become so deeply divided that they are willing to kill each other. From a distance of 150 years, we should ALL be able to see what a bad thing it is for our country to be split. I guess we're so busy being divided in 2015 we can't see it, though.
Stone Mtn is a bit more nuanced -- in terms of what's plausible, the correct course of action is not to blast the carvings away, but to ensure every visitor understands that those men were traitorous propagators of one of America's great sins.
Stone Mtn ought to be a teaching venue, informing those men were the enemies of America and our ideals for liberty and justice for all -- and driving home that we should never allow such injustices on our watch and that we must never rest in our progress towards a more just society.
The LARGER ISSUE, that continues to be obscured is that of the systemic biases and racism that continue to afflict America in 2015. We focus on scabs like Stone Mtn and infested warts like the CBF -- rather than talking about the disease causing them. Media won't do it, it's too serious for their quick-hit, tabloid-take agenda (and aptitude); but as citizens we ought to.
Also @goldmom , as an aside, with regard to the quote below, what exactly did he do to "create hate"?
To your point that "things have gone very well" I'll agree things have improved from the Civil Rights Era, but progress slowed drastically. While overt discrimination was no longer taking place at the lunch counter, covert political and economic discrimination (one example) accelerated to become structurally entrenched in what we see as today's America
Stone Mtn ought to be a teaching venue, informing those men were the enemies of America and our ideals for liberty and justice for all -- and driving home that we should never allow such injustices on our watch and that we must never rest in our progress towards a more just society.
The LARGER ISSUE, that continues to be obscured is that of the systemic biases and racism that continue to afflict America in 2015. We focus on scabs like Stone Mtn and infested warts like the CBF -- rather than talking about the disease causing them. Media won't do it, it's too serious for their quick-hit, tabloid-take agenda (and aptitude); but as citizens we ought to.
Also @goldmom , as an aside, with regard to the quote below, what exactly did he do to "create hate"?
To your point that "things have gone very well" I'll agree things have improved from the Civil Rights Era, but progress slowed drastically. While overt discrimination was no longer taking place at the lunch counter, covert political and economic discrimination (one example) accelerated to become structurally entrenched in what we see as today's America
That's a great read! Thanks for sharing.
He's spot on on every issue mentioned. Impressive for a gunsville native.
Props to him for realizing the error of his ways and then being open enough to share it.
The "sandblasting crowd" is really just lessening the credibility of this entire movement. So their extreme and ludicrous ideas -- i.e., like digging up buried Confederate Generals and moving them to inconspicuous/unmarked areas -- means this will pass over sooner instead of later. Poor strategy, but who am I to tell them anything?
Perhaps you and I should start a more strategic movement. It's our country too.
I think the whole movement is a little silly, and actually counterproductive in terms of really "bringing people together."
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