Stone Mountain to be Sandblasted?
- Thread starter JohnnieHolmesNole
- Start date
He won't read the article, it's filled with facts that he refuses to accept.
If you actually did the research you would know that this was published in only one source an anti-Southern muckraking newspaper whose editorial staff was trying to "punish" the South. Lee denied it, no one corroborated the story and it was dismissed as false by all contemporary historians. 1) Lee owned no slaves at that time he was only a caretaker for his father inlaws slaves and freed them in 1862. 2) The very articulate description does not match what an 1866 uneducated former field hand would say. 3) It's been repeated ad nauseum on the Internet recently...just like lots of untruthful statements....because there are certain people who WANTED it to be true. In fact most of the former slaves did not speak unkindly of him. 4) At the time Lee kept a detailed journal and there's no record of this which would have been a big deal (slaves running off). 5) Lee wasn't even at home most of 1859. 6) If actual historians believed it to be true, why have you never heard this before.
Lol, so make your argument. But do it with actual facts.
I don't necessarily disagree with the premise. But my position is that some things are redeemable. The meanings associated with some things can be changed, and that is healthier than wiping them off the face of the earth. The confederate flag is past that point. Either the majority of people that love it are racist, or more likely don't feel strongly enough to have taken it back over all these years. They are responsible for the meaning it holds, by commission or omission.
But something that was started with bad intentions can become something good or neutral. Auschwitz still stands today for a reason. And unlike a symbol, Stone Mountain can't be coopted by just anybody. Jethro Joe Bob isn't going to strap Stone Mountain on his car, or wave Stone Mountain in his neighbor's face. As such, I think there is still the ability to write the story and control the meaning of Stone Mountain, and it's worth trying to do that.
So I did some research of my own and this Civil War figure said most of this in his own journal.
"I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is physical difference between the two which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position."
"As long as blacks continue to live with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life. Family life may also collapse and the increase of mixed breed bastards may some day challenge the supremacy of the white man."
This was said by him to a national caucus of black ministers
"You and we are different races. We have between us a broader difference than exists between almost any other two races. Whether it is right or wrong I need not discuss, but this physical difference is a great disadvantage to us both, as I think your race suffers very greatly, many of them, by living among us, while ours suffers from your presence. In a word, we suffer on each side. If this is admitted, it affords a reason at least why we should be forever separated.”
This was said during a public debate.
"I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races.”
"I have never had the least apprehension that I or my friends would marry negroes if there was no law to keep them from it, but as Judge Douglas and his friends seem to be in great apprehension that they might, if there were no law to keep them from it, I give him the most solemn pledge that I will to the very last stand by the law of this State, which forbids the marrying of white people with (negroes).”
Therefore I say that in the interest of fairness, we should immediately tear down all monuments, change the names of parks and schools and streets of this horrible racist.....Abraham Lincoln.
"I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is physical difference between the two which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position."
"As long as blacks continue to live with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life. Family life may also collapse and the increase of mixed breed bastards may some day challenge the supremacy of the white man."
This was said by him to a national caucus of black ministers
"You and we are different races. We have between us a broader difference than exists between almost any other two races. Whether it is right or wrong I need not discuss, but this physical difference is a great disadvantage to us both, as I think your race suffers very greatly, many of them, by living among us, while ours suffers from your presence. In a word, we suffer on each side. If this is admitted, it affords a reason at least why we should be forever separated.”
This was said during a public debate.
"I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races.”
"I have never had the least apprehension that I or my friends would marry negroes if there was no law to keep them from it, but as Judge Douglas and his friends seem to be in great apprehension that they might, if there were no law to keep them from it, I give him the most solemn pledge that I will to the very last stand by the law of this State, which forbids the marrying of white people with (negroes).”
Therefore I say that in the interest of fairness, we should immediately tear down all monuments, change the names of parks and schools and streets of this horrible racist.....Abraham Lincoln.
He believed all that...and yet still believed it was wrong to enslave them. That they should be paid for their labors. And he fought to defend this country, not divide it. Play word games all you want, one side represents slavery and treason, and it's not the side Lincoln was on.
It wasn't the only one but it was a big one. Let's not diminish this was a huge piece of it. And was even included in the Declaration of Causes for several of the seceding states. Some of the things I have seen lately on Social Media by people claiming the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery and calling people ignorant for believing it did all the while trying to tell people history should not be rewritten. I am not saying this is you, but it certainly seems like you try to diminish that slavery was a big piece of the state's rights they were fighting for.
As far as the flags flying over capital buildings, it should be the U.S. Flag and the state flag. No need to have some historic flag of a side that lost up or any other special interest group flag.
I'm not claiming it wasn't a cause. I'm just opposing those who claim it is the only cause. To me the damage done to this country by Lincoln and his war against not only the South but the Constitution and anyone in the North that disagreed with him is far worse than had he just let the South go. Slavery was going going to end soon regardless. He arrested reporters and sent the military to shut down newspapers. He arrested people left and right and imposed martial law, with Habeas Corpus suspended no less.
As for flags on state capitols: the SC flag had been in the Capitol decades before the civil rights movement and like the Georgia state flag change it went up on top as part of a centennial ceremony for the civil war. It was moved 15 years ago however to a nearby memorial, so it wasn't even over the Capitol last month. The compromise had already been made and should have been honored.
Here is an insightful paper on some of his actions against the Constitution and his own Union citizens of any of you are so inclined to read about it.
http://www.goucher.edu/documents/verge/papers6/fro004.pdf
Now it's a party, Tribe has joined the fray!
Basically the whole thing is nonsense. If we start tearing down monuments to people who does not fit into the 2015 liberal PC ideal...we will have no monuments left.
Let's see, first we need to take down the monuments to all 12 presidents who owned slaves (8 while in office) including Ulysses S Grant, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, John Tyler, Andrew Jackson. So that leaves of the early presidents only John Adams, John Quincy Adams, Millard Fillmore and Franklin Pierce. Pierce was a staunch anti-abolitionist and said far worse things about the evolutionary traits of the black population. Millard Fillmore was more tactful than Pierce but was also an antiabolitionist, was particularly racist towards Asians and is always ranked in the bottom 10 presidents. The two Adams seem like a good choice to keep their monuments as they were both antislavery...except Johnny Q said that Native Americans had no rights to their lands and viciously used white troops to oust or kill Native Americans. The elder Adams might be a candidate to keep his monuments as he was viciously antislavery and it was relatively a peaceful time with Natives during his reign. Except he was staunchly against women getting a right to vote. Here's a quote.
"
Depend upon it, sir, it is dangerous to open So fruitfull a Source of Controversy and Altercation, as would be opened by attempting to alter the Qualifications of Voters. There will be no End of it. New Claims will arise. Women will demand a Vote. Lads from 12 to 21 will think their Rights not enough attended to, and every Man, who has not a Farthing, will demand an equal Voice with any other in all Acts of State. It tends to confound and destroy all Distinctions, and prostrate all Ranks, to one common Level. "
So nope. No presidents before at least the 1900s should have a monument.
So while reading up on Johnny Motherflipping Adams, I saw that his best bud and close cousin Samuel Adams not only owned a slave while New Hampshire allowed it but boned her on the regular while she could not consent as his property. Time for us to take action against this racist beer! We need axes to break every bottle of Sam Adams until the company changes its name. Time to storm the Publixes!
in what ways since we are generalizing here. I feel like we put them on a pedestal.
Question, my recollection is that Lincoln was fine with shipping all slaves back to Africa as his end game on freeing the slaves was more about breaking the South rather than any sort of humanistic exercise. I could be wrong, but I thought I learned that somewhere.
That's true. This is from the History Channel's website:
"For much of his career, Lincoln believed that colonization—or the idea that a majority of the African-American population should leave the United States and settle in Africa or Central America—was the best way to confront the problem of slavery. His two great political heroes, Henry Clay and Thomas Jefferson, had both favored colonization; both were slave owners who took issue with aspects of slavery but saw no way that blacks and whites could live together peaceably. Lincoln first publicly advocated for colonization in 1852, and in 1854 said that his first instinct would be “to free all the slaves, and send them to Liberia” (the African state founded by the American Colonization Society in 1821)."
http://www.history.com/news/5-things-you-may-not-know-about-lincoln-slavery-and-emancipation
The civil war/slavery/North-South thing is far more complex than many try to make it out to be. Every person who fought for the south wasn't an evil person and every person fighting for the North a savior. The fight was primarily over keeping the union. Lincoln and the North would have been fine with keeping slavery if other issues came to an end. I do think that the fractures that lead to the civil war were less about slavery at first and more about economic equality of the union as well as the ability to remain a separate loosely affiliated body of states. The slavery issue was simply the powder keg which blew the doors off the thing.
With that said, there were very few people in the south who didn't believe that Slaves were inferior and who weren't infuriated when Lincoln freed them. At that point in time it became primarily about that issue.
At the same time I don't see Lincoln as the great liberator he is portrayed as. He didn't free all slaves, only the ones in the South as a way to make them stop fighting for their Southern masters. He also planned to simply ship them all back to Africa as others have stated. His plan was never to free them and make them equal, but free them and then get rid of them. I don't think Lincoln saw them as equals although I don't think he agreed with slavery either.
With that said, there were very few people in the south who didn't believe that Slaves were inferior and who weren't infuriated when Lincoln freed them. At that point in time it became primarily about that issue.
At the same time I don't see Lincoln as the great liberator he is portrayed as. He didn't free all slaves, only the ones in the South as a way to make them stop fighting for their Southern masters. He also planned to simply ship them all back to Africa as others have stated. His plan was never to free them and make them equal, but free them and then get rid of them. I don't think Lincoln saw them as equals although I don't think he agreed with slavery either.
#1 pic of slave he was boning. There are rules after all.
#2 Good luck finding a parking spot at publix without getting into a fight at the deli because you had words with a pregnant lady that wouldn't move her cart out of your way so you could park.
History isn't perfect. It's effing stupid to spend time opposing monuments.
Best idea for what to do with Stone Mountain yet...
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/16/us/georgia-stone-mountain-outkast-confederate-monument/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/16/us/georgia-stone-mountain-outkast-confederate-monument/index.html
I actually love the idea of incorporating the history of our black brothers and sisters into our monuments and museums. I also enjoy outkast's music, but I think MLK would make a better addition.
If the effort and emotion put forth towards these topics were directed unto personal introspection and those standing next to us in the present, then our efforts could be directed into looking forward in how to solve real earth problems like exponential sentient AI, humanity's survival in a dying solar system, and if Kate Upton's mammary glands are saggy or worth motor boatin.
Interesting theory about how things are trending in the US.
http://thefederalist.com/2015/07/06/the-new-totalitarians-are-here/
http://thefederalist.com/2015/07/06/the-new-totalitarians-are-here/
The more heated this debate gets, the more I just laugh.
My only question is: Where was all the outrage two months ago? These flags were flying all over the place, and no one had any major issues with these supposedly "racist" monuments like the one at Stone Mountain.
None of this was an issue until some simple minded, mentally ill idiot went into a church and shot a bunch of innocent people.
Our society has lost the ability to think for itself. For those who are suddenly so passionate about fixing these decades of wrongs and atrocities, where were you six months or a year ago? You were walking into government buildings flying the Confederate flag, and visiting places like Stone Mountain, and not saying a damn thing about it.
All our society does is fall into place with issues and agendas perpetuated by the media. If this was as serious of an issue as it is being made out to be, something should have been done decades ago, but it wasn't. Because at that time, it wasn't politically correct to do so.
My only question is: Where was all the outrage two months ago? These flags were flying all over the place, and no one had any major issues with these supposedly "racist" monuments like the one at Stone Mountain.
None of this was an issue until some simple minded, mentally ill idiot went into a church and shot a bunch of innocent people.
Our society has lost the ability to think for itself. For those who are suddenly so passionate about fixing these decades of wrongs and atrocities, where were you six months or a year ago? You were walking into government buildings flying the Confederate flag, and visiting places like Stone Mountain, and not saying a damn thing about it.
All our society does is fall into place with issues and agendas perpetuated by the media. If this was as serious of an issue as it is being made out to be, something should have been done decades ago, but it wasn't. Because at that time, it wasn't politically correct to do so.
Spot damn on. Meanwhile, what flag or monument is going to be taken down after Mohammad-the-Nut-Job blows away four (4) Marines?? Virtually no outrage over that. Dude speaks gospel when he says the Confederate flag "issue" was perpetuated by the media. Suddenly, the lemmings at home start nodding their heads "hey, that sounds like a great idea," all without any independent thought or analysis whatsoever.
And these same media fools will tell the American people who should be the next President, and our sheep will implement the edict. Sad.
For the record there have been many CBF debates in the LR over the years, this isn't something new. There have also been many CBF debates in society at large, which is why several states have pulled their heads from their rectums and updated their state flags. This isn't something new - but the Charleston terrorist's actions set off the powderkeg (not really, backlash hasn't been disproportionate to be honest).
My only thing is, society needs to focus on the larger cancer of the still very prevalent racism in America and structural biases codified into our federal, state and municipal laws. The CBF needed to be done away with, that was a fight worth having, but at this point - we must turn our attention to the bigger issues and let the results of those things correct the Stone Mountains of the nation.
