Tampa Bay Bucs

[ImmortalNole]

Defense last year #15, this year #6.
HOF QB
HOF TE
Better RB
Better WRs

2019 offense 6366, 48 TDs, opponents 5503, 41 TDs. TO's 41 vs 28 = -13
6 of 9 losses by 7 points or less.

2020 offense 6145, 59 TDs, opponents 5234 44 TDs. TO'S 17 bs 25 = +8
3 of 5 losses by 7 or less.

 

[FSU Fogel]

As far as what changed, added a pro bowl caliber right tackle, and free safety in the draft. Added Gronk & Antonio Brown for weapons.

 

[F4Gary]

OP put out the Bat signal for all the Jameis haters. Lol.

 

[Mercutio]

conversely - 3 Brady interceptions and GB gets 6 points. Pack has 2 turnovers and Bucs get touchdowns both times. Defense carried the day.

Two of the picks were on 13. One for not paying attention to where the ball was and one for Brick hands

 

[NotePadRick]

Winston threw 20 pics in 2014 for us and after declaring himself draft-eligible, sloughed off John Gruden's criticism of his recklessness with the ball in his "QB Breakdown" assessment [or whatever the hell it was called] segment featured on ESPN back in the day. Then he started AND ended his tenure in Tampa Bay by throwing the pic six. Let that sink in: you've got a rep as a turnover machine. You seal that rep in your first game, with your first pass. And you reaffirm it by closing it out the same way with your last pass. Couldn't, or more likely wouldn't, be coached out of his bad habits.

 

[mjpwooo]

OP put out the Bat signal for all the Jameis haters. Lol.

Gary, I don't hate JW. Quite the opposite. I was sad, but not surprised, when we (Bucs) let him go.

And this season, and next, has been worth letting him go.

 

[chumleynole]

They added a 1st round OT who had a tremendous season. That's not "basically the same."

Probably a good pick up at right tackle but it is a stretch to say he is better then a guy who started 10 years in the NFL.. Demar Datson had that position last year. He is a 10 year starter in the NFL that the Bucs did not sign because of salary cap issues. I do not care how good the rookie tackle is he is not as good as a 10 year NFL starter. Line was probably better last year. Improvement due to Brady.

 

[chumleynole]

TE a push? Gronk has lost a step but is an incredible blocking TE. Anyone that knows football will see this. A push with OJ Howard. One of the funniest comments I’ve read on this board.

Yeah it is a push or perhaps a step back. Howard is a great blocker too. He is faster and compared to Gronk this year is better. Young Howard is better then old Gronk. What is funny is this needs to be explained to you.

 

[chumleynole]

As far as what changed, added a pro bowl caliber right tackle, and free safety in the draft. Added Gronk & Antonio Brown for weapons.

Look everyone is happy with the right tackle. Oh by the way he is not going to pro bowl and is not even in the conversation for rookie of the year. He is getting credit for the results. I would still take Dotson over him.

 

[PopsNole]

Bucs would have been better this year with Jameis than they were last year. They also would not be going to the Super Bowl with Jameis. Bucs don’t bring in a lot of the other guys they did without Brady also coming. They made the right move.

 

[gcoleman]

Yeah it is a push or perhaps a step back. Howard is a great blocker too. He is faster and compared to Gronk this year is better. Young Howard is better then old Gronk. What is funny is this needs to be explained to you.

That’s hilarious. Howard cannot block a good DE 1 on 1. Gronk is trusted to do so often. Howard is a good blocker, but he’s not in Gronk’s level even while Gronk has clearly lost a step

 

[gcoleman]

Bucs would have been better this year with Jameis than they were last year. They also would not be going to the Super Bowl with Jameis. Bucs don’t bring in a lot of the other guys they did without Brady also coming. They made the right move.

I agree with this. They also had one of their best drafts this past year

 

[chumleynole]

That’s hilarious. Howard cannot block a good DE 1 on 1. Gronk is trusted to do so often. Howard is a good blocker, but he’s not in Gronk’s level even while Gronk has clearly lost a step

First of all being a tight end is mostly about catching the football. If it was mostly about blocking you could just put another tackle in. Also you very much undervalue Howard's ability to block. He was considered one of the best blocking tight ends in the league. Based on Gronk's performance this year I would take a young Howard over an old and rusty Gronk.

 

[chumleynole]

OP put out the Bat signal for all the Jameis haters. Lol.

I do not believe there are Jameis haters on this board. I think there a lot of Seminole fans that believe in Jameis much the same way Gator fans believe in Tebow. Jameis is a lot better then Tebow. Jameis can turn his career around. However he got as much of an opportunity as any quarterback should expect to get in his first 5 years in Tampa. Offensively the team he played for was loaded. If you make the argument that he failed it was his failure. Not his line or his weapons or his running backs. The kickers and the defense could have been better but that is still not a reasonable excuse for him leading the league over his 5 year tenure in interceptions and fumbles.

 

[PopsNole]

Jameis has a habit of making awful plays in crunch time. You can only throw so many back breaking pick 6s and interceptions before a team moves on. It wasn't just that he turned the ball over it was that he did so at the worst possible times. You never knew if you were going to get 400 yards 5 TDs 1 int Jameis or 380 yards 1 TD 4 ints and 1 fumble Jameis. Teams don't want to build around that uncertainty.

 

[gcoleman]

First of all being a tight end is mostly about catching the football. If it was mostly about blocking you could just put another tackle in. Also you very much undervalue Howard's ability to block. He was considered one of the best blocking tight ends in the league. Based on Gronk's performance this year I would take a young Howard over an old and rusty Gronk.

Must be nice to have a “rusty old Gronk” consistently taking good defenders out of the play. These comments are interesting, especially considering Brady heavily recruited Gronk to join him in Tampa.

 

[QuaZ2002]

Bucs would have been better this year with Jameis than they were last year. They also would not be going to the Super Bowl with Jameis. Bucs don’t bring in a lot of the other guys they did without Brady also coming. They made the right move.

This is correct, IMO. Brady wasn’t good yesterday at all but winning follows that dude wherever he goes.

 

[FSU & Golf]

Brady on his way to his 10th Super Bowl. Amazing. Bucs look good, defense was tough in the red zone, they can run and throw, and two of Brady's picks were basically punts so they didn't give Rogers short fields. Good for them, but a tall task awaits them in Tampa.

 

[chumleynole]

Must be nice to have a “rusty old Gronk” consistently taking good defenders out of the play. These comments are interesting, especially considering Brady heavily recruited Gronk to join him in Tampa.

Marcedes Lewis is probably the best blocking tight end in the league. Is he better the Howard?

 

[PopsNole]

Gronk is a great blocking TE. He's not close to what he used to be as a receiver but is still good enough to open up other players because the threat of him leaves one on one coverage on other parts of the field.

 

[chumleynole]

Gronk is a great blocking TE. He's not close to what he used to be as a receiver but is still good enough to open up other players because the threat of him leaves one on one coverage on other parts of the field.

I would say last year Howard was a bigger threat in the passing game then Gronk is this year. Gronk is probably the better blocker but Howard is considered a very good blocker.

 

[mjpwooo]

I've got a funny feeling that OJ Howard is going to get traded this offseason. Now, a lot will depend on Brate and Gronk returning. But while OJ got screwed with this injury, he still was just slightly above "eh", for the most part.

 

[chumleynole]

I've got a funny feeling that OJ Howard is going to get traded this offseason. Now, a lot will depend on Brate and Gronk returning. But while OJ got screwed with this injury, he still was just slightly above "eh", for the most part.

He has not lived up to his potential. He is still a special talent at that position. I believe there were trade rumors prior to the start of this year.

 

[407nole]

He has not lived up to his potential. He is still a special talent at that position. I believe there were trade rumors prior to the start of this year.

Howard looks like Tarzan and plays like Jane.

 

[chumleynole]

Yeah, Winston could have done the same with this defense.

Brady would have taken last years Bucs team to the super bowl.

 

[-Black]

Probably a good pick up at right tackle but it is a stretch to say he is better then a guy who started 10 years in the NFL.. Demar Datson had that position last year. He is a 10 year starter in the NFL that the Bucs did not sign because of salary cap issues. I do not care how good the rookie tackle is he is not as good as a 10 year NFL starter. Line was probably better last year. Improvement due to Brady.

It's not a stretch at all. PFF has Wirfs as a top 2 RT in the game.

And lol @ "did not sign because of salary cap issues." Dotson signed with the Broncos for 1.5 after sitting in the FA pool for months because no one wanted him. If the Bucs wanted him back, they would have brought him back. He was a below average right tackle in his final year with the Bucs, so they got rid of him, and upgraded that side of the line with someone that allowed 1 sack all year and graded out as a top 2 RT in the league.

Dotson wasn't even the starter in Denver until their starter went down. He's done as anyone's starting RT.

The Bucs upgraded their OL. It wasn't "basically the same."

 

[PopsNole]

I would say last year Howard was a bigger threat in the passing game then Gronk is this year. Gronk is probably the better blocker but Howard is considered a very good blocker.

Probably on a down to down basis you're right. In the end zone though teams are single or double covering Gronk still though.

 

[PopsNole]

It's not a stretch at all. PFF has Wirfs as a top 2 RT in the game.

And lol @ "did not sign because of salary cap issues." Dotson signed with the Broncos for 1.5 after sitting in the FA pool for months because no one wanted him. If the Bucs wanted him back, they would have brought him back. He was a below average right tackle in his final year with the Bucs, so they got rid of him, and upgraded that side of the line with someone that allowed 1 sack all year and graded out as a top 2 RT in the league.

Dotson wasn't even the starter in Denver until their starter went down. He's done as anyone's starting RT.

The Bucs upgraded their OL. It wasn't "basically the same."

PFF is good for NFL coverage. Their college football coverage is bad though. They essentially use interns to review film.

 

[trunole1]

Lifetime Bucs fan from the beginning of 0-26 Like Brady and Winston( wish he could have stayed) but that was pretty much impossible. It will be interesting if he actually stays with the Saints as Hill with that big contract could make it hard to keep him.
His current contract is embarrassingly small.

 

[trunole1]

Probably on a down to down basis you're right. In the end zone though teams are single or double covering Gronk still though.

Howard can definitely stretch the field more than Brate or Gronk. He seemed to be making real progress before getting injured.

 

[FSU Fogel]

Look everyone is happy with the right tackle. Oh by the way he is not going to pro bowl and is not even in the conversation for rookie of the year. He is getting credit for the results. I would still take Dotson over him.

Wirfs is light years better than Dotson. Like better than Dotson ever was. Wirfs isn’t going to a pro bowl because casual fans don’t know OL play.

 

[chumleynole]

Half way through the year Wirfs was one of the lowest rated offensive tackles in the league. He came on in the second half. Wirf has had a good rookie year it is still unlikely his career will be as good as Dotson. Any comments otherwise are just uninformed.

 

[chumleynole]

It's not a stretch at all. PFF has Wirfs as a top 2 RT in the game.

And lol @ "did not sign because of salary cap issues." Dotson signed with the Broncos for 1.5 after sitting in the FA pool for months because no one wanted him. If the Bucs wanted him back, they would have brought him back. He was a below average right tackle in his final year with the Bucs, so they got rid of him, and upgraded that side of the line with someone that allowed 1 sack all year and graded out as a top 2 RT in the league.

Dotson wasn't even the starter in Denver until their starter went down. He's done as anyone's starting RT.

The Bucs upgraded their OL. It wasn't "basically the same."

Wirfs is light years better than Dotson. Like better than Dotson ever was. Wirfs isn’t going to a pro bowl because casual fans don’t know OL play.

Jameis wanted 30 million and got one. Same true for Dotson. They did not let him go due to poor performance. It was a financial decision. He may have signed for 1.5 (more then Jameis got) but he wanted a lot more. He was making 5 plus. Before Dotson got hurt he ranked ahead of Wirfs on PFF rankings. Wirfs worked out but Dotson was not the issue on the line last year. LOL. To say otherwise is fiction.

 

[FSU Fogel]

Jameis wanted 30 million and got one. Same true for Dotson. They did not let him go due to poor performance. It was a financial decision. He may have signed for 1.5 (more then Jameis got) but he wanted a lot more. He was making 5 plus. Before Dotson got hurt he ranked ahead of Wirfs on PFF rankings. Wirfs worked out but Dotson was not the issue on the line last year. LOL. To say otherwise is fiction.

Fiction is the world you’re in. Dotson had the same number of penalties in less than half as many snaps played. He faced inferior pass rushers to Wirfs, who as a rookie faced CamJordan twice, Burns twice, Mack, Zadarius Smith, Frank Clark, and the list goes on.

If you look at the 2019 season for Dotson, on the Bucs, in the same offense, he was a 70.8 PFF grade, with 1045 snaps played, 10 penalties and 5 sacks surrendered.

Wirfs in 2020 graded at 82.2 PFF, had 1073 snaps, 3 penalties and 1 sack surrendered.

Wirfs graded out higher than Dotson ever has. Dotson’s best year was 2013 when he graded out at 80.2.

Dotson may not have been a huge liability, but he had injury problems, and isn’t nearly as good as Wirfs

 

[FSU Fogel]

It's not a stretch at all. PFF has Wirfs as a top 2 RT in the game.

And lol @ "did not sign because of salary cap issues." Dotson signed with the Broncos for 1.5 after sitting in the FA pool for months because no one wanted him. If the Bucs wanted him back, they would have brought him back. He was a below average right tackle in his final year with the Bucs, so they got rid of him, and upgraded that side of the line with someone that allowed 1 sack all year and graded out as a top 2 RT in the league.

Dotson wasn't even the starter in Denver until their starter went down. He's done as anyone's starting RT.

The Bucs upgraded their OL. It wasn't "basically the same."

Thank you! I don’t think people understand how big of an upgrade Wirfs was at RT

 

[chumleynole]

Fiction is the world you’re in. Dotson had the same number of penalties in less than half as many snaps played. He faced inferior pass rushers to Wirfs, who as a rookie faced CamJordan twice, Burns twice, Mack, Zadarius Smith, Frank Clark, and the list goes on.

If you look at the 2019 season for Dotson, on the Bucs, in the same offense, he was a 70.8 PFF grade, with 1045 snaps played, 10 penalties and 5 sacks surrendered.

Wirfs in 2020 graded at 82.2 PFF, had 1073 snaps, 3 penalties and 1 sack surrendered.

Wirfs graded out higher than Dotson ever has. Dotson’s best year was 2013 when he graded out at 80.2.

Dotson may not have been a huge liability, but he had injury problems, and isn’t nearly as good as Wirfs

It is still unlikely that Wirfs will have as successful a career as Datsun. Halfway through the year Wirfs was ranked at the bottom half of tackles in the NFL. Wirfs finished with a very good rookie year. The fiction I was talking about was that people like you want to say Datson was a lousy lineman. He has like 140 plus NFL starts. Does that sound like a guy who has had more then his share of injuries. Like you, they claim the Bucs got rid of him due to poor performance. One of us is seeing things how he wants them to be the other is seeing things as how they are.

 

[FSU Fogel]

It is still unlikely that Wirfs will have as successful a career as Datsun. Halfway through the year Wirfs was ranked at the bottom half of tackles in the NFL. Wirfs finished with a very good rookie year. The fiction I was talking about was that people like you want to say Datson was a lousy lineman. He has like 140 plus NFL starts. Does that sound like a guy who has had more then his share of injuries. Like you, they claim the Bucs got rid of him due to poor performance. One of us is seeing things how he wants them to be the other is seeing things as how they are.

Bro, you are lost. Based on pure facts, Wirfs played at an elite level. 1 sack surrendered in nearly 1100 plays. He graded out as the second best RT in pro football.

Dotson was drafted in 2009, he missed all of 2010 due to injury, and only has 114 starts, not nearly 140 or more. 2015 he missed 11 games, 2016 he missed 3, 2017 he missed 5.

Dotson has only played 2 complete seasons. I don’t know if you’re related to him, but you’re lost on this discussion. Dotson has a clear injury history.

Wirfs is likely to have a significantly more successful career based off the fact he’s a full time starter as a rookie, and graded out better as a 22 year old rookie than Dotson ever did in his prime.

None of this includes the fact that Wirfs is physically far superior to Dotson for the position. Dotson was very tall and long, but Wirfs is 6'5" with long arms, he blew up the combine. He is stronger, faster, more agile, and obviously more highly regarded as a first round pick by LITERALLY EVERYONE WHO KNOWS FOOTBALL than Dotson.

 

[chumleynole]

Bro, you are lost. Based on pure facts, Wirfs played at an elite level. 1 sack surrendered in nearly 1100 plays. He graded out as the second best RT in pro football.

Dotson was drafted in 2009, he missed all of 2010 due to injury, and only has 114 starts, not nearly 140 or more. 2015 he missed 11 games, 2016 he missed 3, 2017 he missed 5.

Dotson has only played 2 complete seasons. I don’t know if you’re related to him, but you’re lost on this discussion. Dotson has a clear injury history.

Wirfs is likely to have a significantly more successful career based off the fact he’s a full time starter as a rookie, and graded out better as a 22 year old rookie than Dotson ever did in his prime.

None of this includes the fact that Wirfs is physically far superior to Dotson for the position. Dotson was very tall and long, but Wirfs is 6'5" with long arms, he blew up the combine. He is stronger, faster, more agile, and obviously more highly regarded as a first round pick by LITERALLY EVERYONE WHO KNOWS FOOTBALL than Dotson.

Bro you are making the wrong argument. I am very pleased with Tristan. He is not the reason the Bucs are in the super bowl and if he had been there last year instead of Datson there would not have been a dramatic difference. You along with a bunch of people on this board want to make the point that Jameis was failed by the Bucs and not the other way around. That is the point I am arguing. Datson is considerred a good right tackle. People posting on this board are making out he was garbage. Wirfs likely would have graded out lower with Jameis as his quarterback.

 

[FSU Fogel]

Bro you are making the wrong argument. I am very pleased with Tristan. He is not the reason the Bucs are in the super bowl and if he had been there last year instead of Datson there would not have been a dramatic difference. You along with a bunch of people on this board want to make the point that Jameis was failed by the Bucs and not the other way around. That is the point I am arguing. Datson is considerred a good right tackle. People posting on this board are making out he was garbage. Wirfs likely would have graded out lower with Jameis as his quarterback.

Dotson is no longer a “good starter” at RT. Hence why he was a FA for a long time. Hence why he doesn’t grade out like Wirfs

I never said the Bucs failed Jameis and not the other way around. you’re creating false narratives now.

But upgrading the secondary, the OL, the run game, all played a factor. Wirfs is light years ahead of Dotson for the run game, physicality, and pass pro.

Jameis made terrible decisions, but the whole team transformed this offseason, because of Brady more than anything. He brought a different mindset, experience, perspective,

 

[gcoleman]

Dotson is no longer a “good starter” at RT. Hence why he was a FA for a long time. Hence why he doesn’t grade out like Wirfs

I never said the Bucs failed Jameis and not the other way around. you’re creating false narratives now.

But upgrading the secondary, the OL, the run game, all played a factor. Wirfs is light years ahead of Dotson for the run game, physicality, and pass pro.

Jameis made terrible decisions, but the whole team transformed this offseason, because of Brady more than anything. He brought a different mindset, experience, perspective,

It’s a waste of time debating with him