The White Queen

[fsu1jreed]

Tribe,

I remember a few months ago we discussed this show, well I'm about halfway through it. It's not bad, I think the writing is actually pretty good, but some of the choices for actors/actresses takes away from this, here are some notables:

• Rebecca Ferguson (Queen Elizabeth) - B+....she's hit or miss, she's had some absolutely awesome scenes and then every now and then it's like she's sleep walking
• Max Irons (King Edward) - C+.......not bad, but not great in any scene
• Amanda Hale (Lady Margaret Beaufort) - A+.....wow, never heard or seen her before, but she carries this show
• Eleanor Tomlinson (Isabel Neville) - B+......another one who has been close to great in every scene, but all her scenes have been similar which takes away from her grade
• Faye Marsay (Anne Neville) - A-........been great in about every scene, even as her character has evolved
• Caroline Goodall (Duchess Cecily) - B+.......scenes have been limited, but not a bad one in the bunch

Overall, not a bad series, but if I hadn't really gotten into 'The White Princess' I doubt I would have ever watched it. Now, I'm waiting until 'The Tudors' run a marathon so I can DVR all of them.

 

[FSUTribe76]

Tribe,

I remember a few months ago we discussed this show, well I'm about halfway through it. It's not bad, I think the writing is actually pretty good, but some of the choices for actors/actresses takes away from this, her are some notables:

• Rebecca Ferguson (Queen Elizabeth) - B+....she's hit or miss, she's had some absolutely awesome scenes and then every now and then it's like she's sleep walking
• Max Irons (King Edward) - C+.......not bad, but not great in any scene
• Amanda Hale (Lady Margaret Beaufort) - A+.....wow, never heard or seen her before, but she carries this show
• Eleanor Tomlinson (Isabel Neville) - B+......another one who has been close to great in every scene, but all her scenes have been similar which takes away from her grade
• Faye Marsay (Anne Neville) - A-........been great in about every scene, even as her character has evolved
• Caroline Goodall (Duchess Cecily) - B+.......scenes have been limited, but not a bad one in the bunch

Overall, not a bad series, but if I hadn't really gotten into 'The White Princess' I doubt I would have ever watched it. Now, I'm waiting until 'The Tudors' run a marathon so I can DVR all of them.

The Tudors is definitely an upgrade in quality, I think you'll really enjoy it. But the three series do work together even though on different networks. Similar to how you can watch Spartacus and then go straight into Rome. Obviously Rome is the higher quality series just like Tudors is, but they are both supplemented well by their "lesser"series.

 

[nynole1]

Higher quality is why Rome only lasted two seasons, production costs were too much, at least that's what I read.

 

[FSUTribe76]

Higher quality is why Rome only lasted two seasons, production costs were too much, at least that's what I read.

Partially. They were also going to be running into Jesus historically and I think they rather prudently decided to end the series rather than alienate huge swathes of the population or ruin the series. Because your choices were 1) ignore that Jesus was running around during this timeframe which would tick off the Evangelical Christian Right as well as be historically inaccurate, 2) incorporate the important political uprising of the cult of Christianity within Judaism and the Roman world in general but leave him human or just vague references to miracles never seen on screen and tick off the Evangelical Christian Right even further or 3) incorporate full on magical Jesus and bring magic and mysticism into a humanist series which would basically ruin it.

So I don't think there were many good options for continuing it. If I'd been in charge of HBO I would have stopped it at two great seasons as well or else made it an anthology series and visit other really interesting time periods in Roman history.

 

[fsu1jreed]

Partially. They were also going to be running into Jesus historically and I think they rather prudently decided to end the series rather than alienate huge swathes of the population or ruin the series. Because your choices were 1) ignore that Jesus was running around during this timeframe which would tick off the Evangelical Christian Right as well as be historically inaccurate, 2) incorporate the important political uprising of the cult of Christianity within Judaism and the Roman world in general but leave him human or just vague references to miracles never seen on screen and tick off the Evangelical Christian Right even further or 3) incorporate full on magical Jesus and bring magic and mysticism into a humanist series which would basically ruin it.

So I don't think there were many good options for continuing it. If I'd been in charge of HBO I would have stopped it at two great seasons as well or else made it an anthology series and visit other really interesting time periods in Roman history.

They could have went a season or two without acknowledging Jesus, it's not like any of the period shows closely follows history............I read an article that a main secondary reason, after the cost, was that after Augustus was the Pax Romana (~300 years of "Peace"), so that kind of limited the writers where to go next (sounds like BS, but that's what it said).

 

[nynole1]

They could have went a season or two without acknowledging Jesus, it's not like any of the period shows closely follows history............I read an article that a main secondary reason, after the cost, was that after Augustus was the Pax Romana (~300 years of "Peace"), so that kind of limited the writers where to go next (sounds like BS, but that's what it said).

This. Thanks for posting without the magic comments.
I agree, it certainly does sound like an excuse lol

 

[FSUTribe76]

This. Thanks for posting without the magic comments.
I agree, it certainly does sound like an excuse lol

Sigh. See that's why I said they couldn't do it, you proved my point. You can't even say Biblical Jesus magical supernatural powers (like multiplying fish, bringing back the dead, walking on water etc) without offending anyone. It's a zero sum game they very correctly avoided by not having a third season (or at least a third season that chronologically followed the second, there are a lot of really interesting stories to tell from Roman history).

 

[nynole1]

So you think in a historical drama, they would refer to Jesus as a magician? Of course not, you are too smart for that. You just decided to take a shot knowing it would be taken the wrong way by some people. Unfortunate, this could have been a more interesting thread if you didn't decide to be obnoxious.

 

[FSUTribe76]

So you think in a historical drama, they would refer to Jesus as a magician? Of course not, you are too smart for that. You just decided to take a shot knowing it would be taken the wrong way by some people. Unfortunate, this could have been a more interesting thread if you didn't decide to be obnoxious.

No, you're just looking for a reason to feel oppressed. The term Magic springs from magi or wiseman who in Biblical times roamed Middle East committing miracles. And which Jesus was called contemporaneously and shortly after he was living.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/26972493/...earliest-reference-describes-christ-magician/

A team of scientists led by renowned French marine archaeologist Franck Goddio recently announced that they have found a bowl, dating to between the late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D., that is engraved with what they believe could be the world's first known reference to Christ.

If the word "Christ" refers to the Biblical Jesus Christ, as is speculated, then the discovery may provide evidence that Christianity and paganism at times intertwined in the ancient world.

The full engraving on the bowl reads, "DIA CHRSTOU O GOISTAIS," which has been interpreted by the excavation team to mean either, "by Christ the magician" or, "the magician by Christ."

"It could very well be a reference to Jesus Christ, in that he was once the primary exponent of white magic," Goddio, co-founder of the Oxford Center of Maritime Archaeology, said.

He and his colleagues found the object during an excavation of the underwater ruins of Alexandria's ancient great harbor. The Egyptian site also includes the now submerged island of Antirhodos, where Cleopatra's palace may have been located.

Both Goddio and Egyptologist David Fabre, a member of the European Institute of Submarine Archaeology, think a "magus" could have practiced fortune telling rituals using the bowl. The Book of Matthew refers to "wisemen," or Magi, believed to have been prevalent in the ancient world.

According to Fabre, the bowl is also very similar to one depicted in two early Egyptian earthenware statuettes that are thought to show a soothsaying ritual."

 

[nynole1]

lol @ oppressed, hardly.

If you are telling me that you weren't trying to be intentionally insulting?
I cant remember seeing any historical drama him in that way, maybe Ive missed it.

 

[FSUTribe76]

If you are telling me that you weren't trying to be intentionally insulting?
I cant remember seeing any historical drama him in that way, maybe Ive missed it.

Nope. Not intentionally insulting that's what the earliest records of him say. Unless you're saying I'm making up the archeological record to support what I said. You're simply being WAY over sensitive and looking for insult where none was intended. Which basically says...yeah, average Americans are too sensitive to have anything resembling a discussion on the matter and would just start protesting immediately unless they went full on, magical, all powerful Biblical Jesus. And that does not fit into the realistic world of the Rome series.

And I'm fairly certain Jesus did fewer miracles (7) than prophets/magicians/magi Elisha (32) and Elijah (16), if you believe the Gospel of John which specifically said there were seven rather than the rest of the Bible which all told would have 37 different miracles. So at the time those who did not witness said miracles and were believers would have just attributed him the same titles and powers of other magi.

So if you're going to do anything resembling an accurate depiction of his place in history when he was alive he would have been a magi influential in parts of Isreal and nowhere else. It wasn't until a hundred or so years later that Christianity spread from a cult within Judaism in Isreal and parts of Asia Minor to anything resembling a widespread and distinct religion.

So to depict it as anything else would not be accurate but religious propaganda which they obviously did not want to touch. Paul was still spreading the word by roaming around the Roman Empire (mainly in Asia Minor/Middle East not Europe as most of his work was in Syria, Isreal, and Turkey with a little in Greece) in AD 45-64 where he was likely killed by Nero. And Augustus died before Paul was spreading the word throughout mainly the ME. So there would be very little realisation of Jesus as a god, at the time of a Rome season three he would have been alive probably following to his death but he would have been counted as a magi contemporaneously.

 

[nynole1]

We are clearly having two different conversations, not worth continuing.

 

[fsu1jreed]

Wow, Episode 8 was a GREAT one....I need to watch it again, but it was REALLY good.

The King Is Dead

 

[fsu1jreed]

Okay, for some reason I thought the 'White Queen' was before the War of the Roses and the 'White Princess' was after the WotR, but no, the 'White Queen' was right before the Battle of Bosworth (which ended the WotR) and the 'White Princess' is following the Battle of Bosworth. Lizze, the White Queen's daughter, is the White Princess which married Henry Tudor, also from the 'White Queen'. It all makes sense now.

 

[Naught-Nole-Buc]

Okay, for some reason I thought the 'White Queen' was before the War of the Roses and the 'White Princess' was after the WotR, but no, the 'White Queen' was right before the Battle of Bosworth (which ended the WotR) and the 'White Princess' is following the Battle of Bosworth. Lizze, the White Queen's daughter, is the White Princess which married Henry Tudor, also from the 'White Queen'. It all makes sense now.

Marries Henry VII and is mother to Henry VIII (the head chopper-offer)