There are no long term adverse effects of mRNA vaccines
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Omicron is relatively new, but for delta, natural immunity was significantly more robust.
No. About to head out—but you can read the John Hopkins link in 1961’s post. Not basing my comment on that link, but their wording suggests they believe the same.
But just to be clear you aren't basing that off of anything definitive, correct? I haven't seen anything about that scenario specifically.
Correct. It’s not my speculation, but haven’t seen any studies/data on it. We’ve discussed before and I think it’s something we’d both like to see.
Just curious why you are drawing your conclusion based on an observational, non peer reviewed , social media promoted study and disregarding all the other studies that report contrary information.
Ireland study had similar results. The CDC is the only study I’ve seen saying natural immunity doesn’t provide better immunity than a vaccine that fails to stop transmission
Before listening to the scientific community, I would have no reason/basis to know myself whether Covid-19 natural immunity beats vaccine immunity or vice versa. Therefore, I tend to go with the prevailing most credible science and other meaningful contextual clues, all weighted for the risks of each avenue to immunity.
For example:
Whether it's specific studies and/or the well-informed opinions of highly educated/trained/experienced doctors and researchers, science seems to suggest that Vaccine immunity (at least via double dose of Pfizer or Moderna, even before being boosted) beats Natural immunity, especially after considering the risks/costs to acquire one vs the other:
-- Johns Hopkins -- "Natural immunity is the antibody protection your body creates against a germ once you’ve been infected with it. Natural immunity varies according to the person and the germ. For example, people who have had the measles are not likely to get it again, but this is not the case for every disease. A mild case of an illness may not result in strong natural immunity. New studies show that natural immunity to the coronavirus weakens (wanes) over time, and does so faster than immunity provided by COVID-19 vaccination."
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/hea.../covid-natural-immunity-what-you-need-to-know
-- Nebraska Medicine -- "What about that Israeli study suggesting natural immunity is stronger? Infectious diseases expert James Lawler, MD, MPH, FIDSA, carefully evaluates the study design of the retrospective Maccabi Health System study in his Aug. 31 briefing. In the briefing, he identifies two concerning sources of error that were not corrected for: survivorship bias and selection bias"
Lawler Weekly 8.31.21.mp4
echo360.org
-- British Society for Immunology -- "It's likely that for most people vaccination against COVID-19 will induce more effective and longer lasting immunity than that induced by natural infection with the virus."
Example of a contextual clue --
the NCAA's most recent isolation policies -- per https://www.ncaa.com/news/ncaa/arti...eases-updated-covid-19-guidance-winter-sports
"Those considered fully vaccinated include people:
Within two months of having completed the primary series of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine (one dose).
Within five months of having completed the primary series of the mRNA Pfizer vaccine, or within six months of having completed the primary series of the mRNA Moderna vaccine (two doses for both).
Who have received a booster vaccine if they are beyond two months of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine or beyond five or six months of the mRNA Pfizer or Moderna vaccine, respectively.
A person who has had a documented COVID-19 infection in the past 90 days is considered the equivalent of "fully vaccinated."
The contextual clue here is that Pfizer & Moderna "full vaccination" (2 doses) is considered by the NCAA, with plenty of medical input and the awareness that they are subjecting themselves and/or member schools to potential litigation risk if they get it wrong, to provide longer immunity (5 months assumed protection) than is mere Covid-19 infection without any vaccination (3 months assumed protection.)
Side note -- It's interesting to me that the J&J shot (long considered the redheaded stepchild of the 3 manufacturers when it comes to Covid vaccine efficacy), if unboosted, is apparently considered inferior to natural immunity (2 months vs. 3 months), or else they're erring on the side of caution with J&J if they are awaiting more data here.
One very important consideration should be obvious to all who aren't partial to RFID chip implantation/infertility type conspiracy thinking and fear-mongering... The Risks/Costs of Acquiring Immunity -- for the overwhelming majority of the population, acquiring immunity via vaccination certainly carries with it a much lower risk profile, to the person gaining that immunity and to the community he/she comes in contact with, than does acquiring immunity by getting infected (considering all Covid-19 strains to date, not just Omicron.)
Good night.
Where are you looking? The preponderance of studies promote vax immunity as greater than natural immunity.
I could care less which type, natural or vaccine induced immunity is better. However it is clear that you are looking for studies that support your view that natural immunity is superior. This is cherry picking and offering opinions based on this information as factual is misleading. This is clearly agenda driven and should be dismissed based on bias.
Does the vaccine provide immunity from infection? If not, it's not better than natural immunity. If so, it may or may not be better... but the studies suggest NI is superior.
Found this article comparing the studies & their respective data.
www.clarkcountytoday.com
Israeli study shows natural immunity delivers 13 times more protection than COVID vaccines - ClarkCountyToday.com
CDC study on natural immunity has different conclusion than Israeli study.
www.clarkcountytoday.com
Again, I’ve read studies supporting it. Only the CDC study has been contrary.
OT, but the CDC director just admitted that “over 75%” of covid deaths have been people with “at least 4 comorbidities.” So over 600,000…
It seems odd that the CDC is putting this out now after two years. Why try to deflate the stats now? It makes it look like they were purposely inflated all along and they are trying to change the narrative. The distinction of with covid and from covid is very big as it relates to hospitalizations and deaths.
How many "vaccinated" people have tested positive vs those with previous infection? Surely the CDC would track that.
Here is the thing Steve. There are studies that say as many as 30 percent of those who catch Covid get no immune response from the infection. There are studies that say that a person with natural immunity is many times more likely to contract Covid than someone who is fully faxed. There are far more that indicate vaccination immunity is better than natural immunity yet you latch onto the the ones that agree with your preconceived point of view. The idea that the only contrary study is the cdcs is preposterous.Found this article comparing the studies & their respective data.
Israeli study shows natural immunity delivers 13 times more protection than COVID vaccines - ClarkCountyToday.com
CDC study on natural immunity has different conclusion than Israeli study.
A question I have about this... are the studies you are referring to, comparing bona-fide covid cases to vaxxed? It would make sense that in the case of an asymptomatic covid case vs vaxxed, the vaxxed would look better.
If someone had a real, symptomatic case, (full blown symptoms) it just doesn't make sense that these vaccines provide a more robust immune response than that. I can hardly believe that the evolutionary development of humans' immune system, is not superior to vaccines that were created in a laboratory over a couple of years, and we absolutely know, allow infection within a few months.
Personally I do not really care whether vax immunity or natural immunity is better. All I am saying is that from everything I have read the preponderance of the studies have come down on the vax immunity side. It is certainly not settled and the posts that I take exception to, are the ones that latch onto a study that reinforces an already held opinion and act as if that is the matter is now settled. As far a lab produced vaccine being better than the human bodies immune system, I have no doubt that one day, yes it will be better. Not sure if that day is today. By the way the antibodies produced by both methods can be and are being measured.
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Nebraska Medicine -- "What about that Israeli study suggesting natural immunity is stronger? Infectious diseases expert James Lawler, MD, MPH, FIDSA, carefully evaluates the study design of the retrospective Maccabi Health System study in his Aug. 31 briefing. In the briefing, he identifies two concerning sources of error that were not corrected for: survivorship bias and selection bias"Found this article comparing the studies & their respective data.
Israeli study shows natural immunity delivers 13 times more protection than COVID vaccines - ClarkCountyToday.com
CDC study on natural immunity has different conclusion than Israeli study.
Lawler Weekly 8.31.21.mp4
Happy to read others, but it was the only one I’ve seen and the only one cited in the John Hopkins article linked by 1961. The Israeli study was pretty comprehensive, but was primarily concerned with delta.
I find it odd that in one thread, provaccination folks say that “of course the vaccine doesn’t prevent infection/transmission,” then in this thread, the vaccine provides greater immunity than natural immunity. It either generally does provide immunity or it doesn’t. No one expects perfect, there are always exceptions. For example, Sean Payton (hybrid immunity) and Lamar Jackson (natural immunity) are, to my knowledge, the only 2 in the NFL to be infected with covid twice. There are probably more. But the “breakthrough” infections are much more prevalent in the league (most NFL players are vaccinated, so not surprising). I’d be interested in reviewing a strong data set/study.
The vaccination rate in the NFL is over 90 percent. For the two to be equal in terms of immunity 9 out of 10 covid infections would have to be the vaccinated. Since they do not report off season covid infections it would be difficult to determine the breakthrough rate between vaxed and natural infection. My whole point is that it is far from decided but you seem to have made up your mind.
Yeah, Other than your “whole point,” I agree. I read a report that 15% of nfl player vaccination cards were fraudulent. More than 10% of exposed players were subject to the unvaccinated quarantine rules. But the vaccinated number is definitely very high. Not exactly the sample to guarantee accuracy, and we lack too much info to draw any concrete conclusion, but I doubt the infection results would differ materially from the general population which is 70+% (?) vaccinated.
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Already posted this above but maybe you ignored it since it doesn’t say what you prefer?
-- British Society for Immunology -- "It's likely that for most people vaccination against COVID-19 will induce more effective and longer lasting immunity than that induced by natural infection with the virus."
COVID-19 immunity: Natural infection compared to vaccination | British Society for Immunology
The British Society for Immunology has partnered with the UK Coronavirus Immunology Consortium (UK-CIC) to create an infographic which explains the difference in immunity against COVID-19 gained through natural infection with SARS-CoV-2 compared to vaccination. Scroll down this page to discover...
The real question here is how many people that have had covid got a re infection. The data has to be there.
I don't know if it is really possible to HONESTLY know. There have been many false positive/asymptomatic cases, that end up getting covid later on, with real symptoms. (And vice versa). It makes logical sense that one was not really covid, and one was. Technically, if you follow the results of the tests, there was re-infection. In real life, I am skeptical that there were 2 bona-fide cases of Covid in the same person, especially in just a couple of months
Don't be skeptical. Not all infections are the same. There are a lot of factors that could lead to someone's immunity through infection not being robust. It's not just a COVID issue.
"Don't be skeptical".. lol. That has been the battle cry of People that have shut down the economy, kept families from visiting their dying loved ones, scarred a whole generation of children... I could type an entire book of the consequences of listening to the "Don't be skeptical" folks.
That is territory that they staked out early, and have done battle for, with every weapon that they have available. The response to Covid was so severe and catastrophic, the "don't be skeptical" folks can never give any of that territory back. Too much damage was done to ever allow themselves to admit that they may have been wrong.
That protection of their territory can manifest itself in many ways...
You seem like a good person, and I am not trying to attack you. I just think the "don't be skeptical" attitude has been forced down people's throats, and being skeptical is a natural reaction to the severity of the covid response
i'm skeptical of any person that received a covid positive but was asymptomatic thinking they have protection. absent a confirming antibody test that's a sword people should not be willing to fall on.
If that was the case they should treat it like they didn't have it. As stated earlier there have been numerous cases of false positives out there. I don't put much weight on those test results anyway. I don't understand the whole desire to be tested anyway. If your sick your sick, stay home and deal with it unless you cant then go to the doctors. Why run to a testing site or the ER when you think you have the sniffles. That's the fear they have put into people and now they are programmed to sit in line for hours to get tested. Why?
Every day information comes out that makes people more skeptical. The CDC was asked how many deaths were from covid (caused by) or with covid (other issues but positive). Now knowing that question was coming at some point you would think they have the answer right? Nope. Crickets. Hopefully they have that information.
i think we test excessively but by the same token if someone has symptoms consistent with covid they should get a test to confirm, particularly if they are scheduled for a vaccine or booster. they may want to put that on hold for a time post infection.
i don't recall what the time was but i do recall there being an advised waiting period between infection and injection.
i don't recall what the time was but i do recall there being an advised waiting period between infection and injection.
I agree with what you said about being tested. I would not minimize the severity of the virus though. Just a personal observation, I am 62 years and in the course of my life I have not known anyone who died from influenza. I personally knew 4 people who died from Covid. The swine flu pandemic of 1918 took place when even antibiotics had not yet been discovered. Tooth aches in that time frame were often lethal. This virus is the real deal. Hopefully Omicron is the beginning of it winding down in terms of severity.
I'm not vaxxed and have no intention of ever being so. I think it's fine if anyone chooses to be because that's a choice of freedom living people, the right to choose. If you believe Faccui, the CDC, and the WHO I have some good swamp land available for sale in downtown Brooklyn at a good price. If you feel immune because you have been vaxxed that land is still available.
The folks mandating shots as a way of guaranteeing protection simply cannot be believed nor trusted to ever speak the truth. My next door neighbor has had two shots and a booster and was in the hospital last week with Covid. She was convinced she was immune from the disease. Not so much.
I repeat. If you choose to take the shots that's fine, just don't try to force people to take them that don't want them. BTW...forcing little children to take them is criminal, insane actually.
Get back to me after long term studies have been in effect. 1-2 years isn't long term. 5 years at a minimum.
The folks mandating shots as a way of guaranteeing protection simply cannot be believed nor trusted to ever speak the truth. My next door neighbor has had two shots and a booster and was in the hospital last week with Covid. She was convinced she was immune from the disease. Not so much.
I repeat. If you choose to take the shots that's fine, just don't try to force people to take them that don't want them. BTW...forcing little children to take them is criminal, insane actually.
Get back to me after long term studies have been in effect. 1-2 years isn't long term. 5 years at a minimum.
Imo you should focus less on the "don't be skeptical" part of my reply. Honestly I'm almost entirely unconcerned with people's political arguments regarding the virus. I prefer to stick mostly to the scientific side of things when discussing which is 100% what my reply was based on.
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Indeed. I think it was @SteveT1 (hopefully I'm not misremembering) recently who said he doesn't want the booster because he had COVID and said he was immune. I don't know if he is still immune or not (I hope he is), but I was sure to ask if he has verified that he is still immune. We shouldn't just assume that we are immune for x amount of time before we know how long immunity lasts.
Did WHO just change the definition of “herd immunity” to Include only vaccinated immunity?
edit-they did not change the definition, but do say that “herd immunity . . . should be achieved by protecting people through vaccination, not by exposing them to the pathogen that causes the disease.”
edit-they did not change the definition, but do say that “herd immunity . . . should be achieved by protecting people through vaccination, not by exposing them to the pathogen that causes the disease.”
Should probably have both included but if we keep getting new variants and it not being clear how long everyone gets “immunity” from the disease or the vaccine not sure herd immunity will ever apply anyhow.
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