Murder and rape isn't incompatible with a civilized society? I'm sure the prison didn't come first.
Death Penalty
- Thread starter ChiefWB
- Start date
Please tell me how a reverence for the military or law enforcement is glorifying violence? Please note they were lumped in with street gangs and the mafia.
But they aren't committing murder and rape on the outside are they? The prisons are not perfect but they need to be changed to make people not want to be there. See my earlier post about the structure and normalcy in prison. Change that and make it not ok to be there.
Serious question... what do you do with violent murderers or child predators?
What do you tell the victim's families who's loved one wasn't treated humanely?
Who was the poster that used to frequent WC a while back that was a shrink too, UCLA maybe?
Do you know why there are flyovers at events and gun salutes at military funerals? Where would we be as a nation without those defending your freedom to think and speak the way you do.
Where would we be without brave policemen doing a thankless job in a system geared against them.
Have a nice day.
They are not supposed to like being there hence prison. Maybe don’t commit crimes?
Hey, in case you missed this question…
are you aware of any countries or states or municipalities who’ve tried that approach, and any data on how it panned out?
Also, even though I wish it could be tested in some meaningful way, I just can’t imagine being the politicians or other leadership who greenlights that unless there’s some damn good safeguards in place to prevent the inevitable “who could have ever thought this would work??!!!!” public outcry, litigation, etc if it goes south and the criminals who we attempted to rehab vs employing harsher treatment wreaked havoc upon their release.
How would you address the political and legal risks here? No matter how well you explain the more optimistic and humane theory, and appeal to people’s higher angels and all that (which I applaud), the downside of being wrong just seems such a huge lift to get past in order to get something like that even piloted.
But maybe it’s already been piloted successfully somewhere?
And to add to that pondering… even though I try to be openminded to trying new, even radically new ways to address societal ills that we haven’t yet figured out the “best” ways to address, I can’t fathom being ok with seeing some animal who raped and brutally cut up my sister or a gf or anybody else I care about being sent to a humanely administered rehab facility vs being punished in some much more painful manner. I think your plan sounds hopeful until realizing that we’re all humans who don’t typically turn the other cheek when personally impacted by violent crime.
Just seems too big an ask IMHO
Just seems too big an ask IMHO
Why Scandinavian Prisons Are Superior
'Open' prisons, in which detainees are allowed to live like regular citizens, should be a model for the U.S.
How Norway turns criminals into good neighbours
Twenty years ago, Norway started focusing on rehabilitating prisoners, and sharply cut reoffending rates.
www.bbc.com
Thanks man, will read that tonightWhy Scandinavian Prisons Are Superior
'Open' prisons, in which detainees are allowed to live like regular citizens, should be a model for the U.S.www.theatlantic.com
Imagine being a lifetime — or even long-term — prosecutor or public defender. Horrible pay. Horrible hours. Woefully insufficient support. Tons of stress (if you are even moderately conscientious). Miserable subject matter.
Same thing for cops. God bless them all.
Didn’t see your BBC citation so slogged through that Atlantic piece. I’m usually a big fan of articles in The Atlantic but holy crap that particular writer’s style was dense and pretentious as hell and a real impediment to even sticking with it long enough to get to the finish line (persevered and got there.) I thought my sentences were too long and impenetrable but he was like hold my beer and take some extra NoDoze.Why Scandinavian Prisons Are Superior
'Open' prisons, in which detainees are allowed to live like regular citizens, should be a model for the U.S.
How Norway turns criminals into good neighbours
Twenty years ago, Norway started focusing on rehabilitating prisoners, and sharply cut reoffending rates.
I did Google to read other articles though and thought this one is good: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-05/what-are-nordic-prisons-like-criminal-justice/101481590
I wish we could drop the American Exceptionalism and macho “who’s gonna be tougher on crime” posturing between competing factions for 5 minutes to have more honest conversations in the US about things we can learn from other countries’ experiences, without immediately citing how “that would never work here because of X, Y and Z” —- and also never really expending any energy to consider if it might be worth exploring changes to X, Y and/or Z as well.
Glad BrainVision spurred some exploring of assumptions here. Still have no idea how any leader looking to get re-elected would even start consideration of any “open prison” experiment in the US, nor if I’d want to be part of the guinea pig community to have one near me.
Unfortunately with us being such a huge melting pot we sometimes get the worse of the worse along with the best of the best. I'm all for rehabilitation but the intellectuals will need more than the opportunity, they'll need millions of dollars to implement it.
I think you encapsulated one of the big impediments to ever getting anything done by your choice of "the intellectuals" to describe folks in favor of exploring genuinely disruptive ways to reimagine how we do some things here in the US.
That whole anti-"elite", anti-"intellectual" populism on steroids thing is not conducive at all to engaging all kinds of potentially valuable stakeholders in a productive convo. Sure seems like it's more about retreating to corners and promoting grievances and resentments.
I wasn't trying to use it in a negative tone. Psychologist and those who study the criminal element need a platform. In my opinion they have what it takes to make a change. I have a masters in criminal behavioral analysis. My original goal in life was to enter the federal law enforcement field but it's become such a political field that those goals aren't achievable in the ranks any longer. Entities like FDLE, maybe. I described a story earlier where a gentleman has been a nuisance for ever. When I started as a patrolman and arrested him for battery it came to light that others had tried to get him sent to a state institution so he can be put in the right hands to get the mental help he needed as it was a capacity issue on his part. The state wanted nothing to do with it even with my recommendation and his lengthy history which is another reason I quit law enforcement.
My opinion is substance abuse is glorified more than violence in this country. The substance abuse and encouragement is an accelerant to the violence we see.
I often wonder what a country without a population fueled by alcohol and drugs would look like but that idea often gets mocked and laughed at.
Hey, at least it might provide future inspiration for a whole ‘nother great run of mob movies:
How Prohibition Put the ‘Organized’ in Organized Crime | HISTORY
Before the 18th amendment made alcohol into a high-demand illegal item, criminal gangs in the United States were mostly small and local.
www.history.com
Hey, at least it might provide future inspiration for a whole ‘nother great run of mob movies:
How Prohibition Put the ‘Organized’ in Organized Crime | HISTORY
Before the 18th amendment made alcohol into a high-demand illegal item, criminal gangs in the United States were mostly small and local.
I’ll look for the link and hopefully be able to find it…anyways I read that alcohol consumption is going down and the younger generation isn’t that interested in drinking.
Substance and alcohol abuse is a huge issue.
@spencerklly what percentage of your calls stemmed from some substance abuse?
Criminal? Probably 25%... but another 25% were probably (based on observations) users, but not intoxicated at the time. About 50% of cardiac red / medical not involving finding a dead person were drug induced. These are rough estimates.
Hopefully, Brainfredvision doesn't tell the family; "A good prison, from my perspective, shouldlook and feel a lot like a summer camp". I doubt that would help with the healing process.
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Most of the world doesn't believe in Christianity. Most "Christians" aren't Christians.
You have a strange definition of deeply.
In the United States, between 6% and 15% of citizens demonstrated nonreligious attitudes and naturalistic worldviews, namely atheists or agnostics. The number of self-identified atheists and agnostics was around 4% each, while many persons formally affiliated with a religion are likewise non-believing.
Irreligion in the United States - Wikipedia
Good One! Gold Mom scores and hits paydirt!
I'm hearing Gene's voice in the back ground. Touchdown FSUUUUU. Touchdown FSUUUU!.
You have a strange definition of deeply.
In the United States, between 6% and 15% of citizens demonstrated nonreligious attitudes and naturalistic worldviews, namely atheists or agnostics. The number of self-identified atheists and agnostics was around 4% each, while many persons formally affiliated with a religion are likewise non-believing.
Irreligion in the United States - Wikipedia
en.m.wikipedia.org
I don't think phone surveys are very reliable in this case.
A better guage, IMO, is attendance at religious services and 80% of Americans don't attend each week.
Also, American culture's overall hostility to Christianity.
At this rate, churches will be gone in a couple decades.
U.S. Church Membership Falls Below Majority for First Time
For the first time in Gallup's polling history, less than half of U.S. adults report belonging to a church, synagogue or mosque.
news.gallup.com
All people are hypocrites. All people. We all know what is right and wrong and we do wrong anyway. Its the innate selfishness in all of us. The church is full of hypocrites. Everyone last one of them. But they do have room for more.... People just like you and me. For we are all weak and bent toward our innate selfishness. That's not bashing ourselves, but it is the human condition. I'm very sorry if you have had a terrible an hurtful experience from within the church or anything church or faith related, but you don't have to carry that emotional and/or spiritual baggage any longer. I get it. DM dude.
Yep.
Church is a hospital for sinners and not a museum for saints although there ARE saints in churches.
I am a Christian. Raised Baptist and currently attend an Assemblies of God church. I know we are all hypocrites and fall short. With that said, my comment was directed largely toward Catholicism. Are there Catholics who are Christian, yes. But there are many that just attend for the motion. Atleast that is my observation and what some who "practice" have told me. The Catholic church is the biggest business in the world and control much more than what we believe. The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Apographa are the tip of the iceburg. Imagine what else they havent allowed to be published. I don't pray or offer offerings to anyone, but God. Take my opinion for what it's worth.
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Hostility towards Christianity has been around for centuries. To be fair, I remember these things called the Crusades which slaughtered millions under the guise of an Islamic takeover when all reality it was all for the Holy Roman Empire and their wealth of control. The Holy Land belongs to no one but the Jews who are probably the most hated group to ever walk this earth.I don't think phone surveys are very reliable in this case.
A better guage, IMO, is attendance at religious services and 80% of Americans don't attend each week.
Also, American culture's overall hostility to Christianity.
At this rate, churches will be gone in a couple decades.
U.S. Church Membership Falls Below Majority for First Time
For the first time in Gallup's polling history, less than half of U.S. adults report belonging to a church, synagogue or mosque.
really? What are your thoughts on how much of this “hostility” is brought on by the manner in which many (thankfully not all) Christians insist that the US is or was intended to be or should be a “Christian nation” and other attempts to judge or marginalize non-Christians based on Christian beliefs?
And how do you think any anti-Christian hostility in the US compares to that experienced by Muslims or Jews or other non-Christians in America?
As a Jew (not particularly observant but I make no attempt to hide my Judaism), and especially a Jew who grew up in and still spends a lot of time in North FL, I’ve had plenty of humorous/bizarre exchanges with my friends and neighbors, classmates, teachers, store clerks, etc… for example the wife of a close friend/neighbor at a home I used to own on the Emerald Coast, she liked me (go figure) and was always trying to set me up with women in her church, encouraged me to be a mentor figure to her kids, but several times told me (at least once in tears) how upset it made her that I’m going to burn in hell as long as I stick to being Jewish. Alrighty then.
And no, that’s not really a “hostility” example, just a humorous memory that came to mind. The hostility part is evident though in the rising rates of anti-Semitic hate crimes in our exceptional nation.
Potentially... we can thank the internet for both church attendance and instant data for polls on who is and is not an atheist. I'd believe the agnostic population is much larger than we want to think.
I agree with you 100%.
Anti-Semitism is worse. It's the world's oldest hatred. Simply horrendous.
I live near Washington D.C. and most of my friends are Jewish.
It may interest you to know that Pope John Paul condemned Anti-Semitism in the strongest terms.
Anytime someone says you're "going to Hell" for being a Jew, I recommend replying that they are blasphemous by putting themselves as judge.
And blasphemy is a serious sin.
Pope John Paul II (1920–2005) - United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
With the passing of Pope John Paul II, the world has lost a moral leader fervently committed to fighting the prejudice and hatred that led to the Holocaust.
www.ushmm.org
Is it safe to say anyone who doesn't believe that God isn't who he is is going to hell. The Bible says the only path to Him is through Him. I also think Jews worship the same God therefor receive the same avenue.
