It's pretty entertaining to see the people who are having a hard time refuting basic biology, try and be a contortionist to justify their tribal beliefs. It's interesting to see how many of your normal compadres are dipping out on this conversation. It's a hard argument to win, when basic common sense is so hard to overcome
She still looks like a woman. She is not walking around with a raging you know what.
I know I decided not to weigh in when terms like "freakish", "oddball" and "mental illness" started being used. Sometimes it's not worth weighing in knowing who you are dealing with.
I guess I don’t understand why it matters if they win. Sure there’s a fairness element, but that goes along with male/female sports being segregated. Fairness is but one reason for segregating the sports. The only reason to allow biological males to compete in female sports is for feels to be spared.
spoken like a true progressive, and there are a lot of people that agree with you I however do not You are born male or female and that is not something anyone has any control of.
I like to think you are a reasonable intelligent person so you should easily be able to see how they can make a rule for trans athletes. IF you were born with male plumbing you play sports with the males, born with female plumbing you play sports with the women, simple as that. You are not discriminating against any rights that keep them from living life as they would like.
Not in the women's locker room. Stop assuming.
I understand that....................what makes you think I don't? But, what about taking substances that help the transition? A genetic female taking testosterone for her transition to a he? The current female swimmer taking testosterone reducing substances that leave her with 3-4 times the testosterone as a genetic female? That is what I was talking about.
I came to this thread knowing this was a contentious subject. Fully understanding that this situation would elicit strong opinions and rightfully so. I was pleasantly surprised about the civil discussions taking place until well...
I would not allow it. I do not care if you identify one way or the other in other walks of life. However in athletics it is a matter of fairness and this situation is clearly unfair to the other girls. I would make the rule that you are forced to compete in the gender you were assigned at birth. It might not be completely fair to that individual but it the closest we can get to fairness overall.
THIS. ANYONE who goes thru puberty as a male has undeniable advantages over a female. Any physiologist can explain that, but PC doesn't allow it to be publically discussed. I predict, if this ridiculousness continues, that one day when the gun goes off all the 'actual females' will stay on the starting blocks and let the 'other guy' run (or swim) the race by him/herself. IMO the 'guy' is literally STEALING opportunities from the women, especially when the women in high school are looking for scholarships. I thought that was what Title IX was supposed to be all about??? Oh well, stupid is as stupid does....
No offense, but this is truly illogical and, well, ignorant position to take. Do you really think the swimming, track and field, whatever, organizations are going to want to handle this on a case-by-case basis, and based on how good the athlete is? My God, what a can of worms that would open up! Who would decide the criteria and who would apply them? That's extra-truly ridiculous. The ONLY reason people were OK with it in your area is because the person in question wasn't very good, when one comes along who IS good I guarantee you the tune will change.
There was an update yesterday from USA swimming that included elite vs non elite athletes, age groups ect... Seemed to put a damper on him competing with the women. Didn't read the whole report just saw a headline.
From what I read it looks like this wont benefit the person in question. He will most likely get categorized as elite and since he competed as a male before would be in eligible for records, championships ect... At least that's what I got out of it. But in a way they are taking the "if your no good it doesn't matter" stance.
Only one thing needs to be measured here.
Which is what I said they would do. I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with it but some posters calling me ignorant and essentially an idiot for suggesting this was even a possibility is pretty hilarious.
Actually, that is for swimming in designated "elite" swimming events under US Swimming and those making junior national time standards. It does not apply to swimmers not competing under US Swimming designation. So, the Penn swimmer still has the ability to swim college and go to the NCAA championships at this point. It does not apply to High School events either. Finally, it does apply to swimmers in the 13-14 age group that would gain a national age group record (these swimmers might not have made junior national times standards).
The NCAA has not changed their rules as of yet. I would be surprised if they didn't follow through with the US Swimming rules. And that can explain why she didn't compete in her last meet.
Whether it’s done or not doesn’t make it right or logical. It’s a simple equation. Boys play with boys. Girls with girls. And if you want some intersectional league or conference, go for it. But don’t force women to play against men. It’s just wrong.
I think you mean males with males and females with females. I’ll just disagree that it’s inherently wrong. Don’t think we’re going to change each other’s opinion on it.
If the NCAA follows through replicating US Swimming this will make for interesting swim meets. Most teams, with the possible exception of the top 2-3 programs in the country have swimmers that don't have junior national times. So, it is possible for almost all teams throughout the different divisions to have transgender swimmers swimming in meets with the exception of the NCAA championships. So, if a transgender athlete swims too fast she can then not be eligible to swim in certain meets, but be eligible in others??????
Seems very subjective which is probably by design. If they are no good then no worries. If they are good then they could act.
Guess so. I'm not sure why they don't just having testing requirements across the board.
Not sure what those tests would be. Can we expect elite athletes to test average? Think this first stab at it, will need to be changed significantly for HS, NCAA, IOC and FINA to make it workable.
Also would be suing through Title 9 to establish who is a female and gets equal opportunities and who doesn't.
Sounds like they're just testing testosterone currently and elite athletes must show below a certain level for 3 quite some time to be eligible.
Assigning max testosterone levels is really problematic as 3% of elite swimmer women have higher that 5mil/l and 3% of elite men have lower than 5. Even though the average for elite swimming females is 2 and elite male swimmers is 15. Frankly, this is a weak work around for dealing with the central problem.
Especially when there is such a simple one.
So, you still don't get that anyone who goes thru puberty as a male has a VERY different physiology (such as bigger lungs and muscles) than a female? And guess what... having a low level of testosterone is NOT going to shrink the lung size or hand size or.... THIS is the problem with this, and yes, you are ignorant if you don't see it. Just take ONE look at the Penn swimmer and tell me he/she doesn't have an advantage over the other 'actual women' standing on the blocks. Lowering someone's testosterone level does NOT 'reverse' the advantages that a male obtains by going thru puberty AS a male. Enjoy your PC attitude, but one day common sense will prevail and enough women will get tired of losing scholly money and will simply refuse to participate. Watch and see!
I mean boys/men and girls/women. I know we won’t agree but I don’t see other options. What people want/wish/identify as doesn’t change biology.
