South Park - Sit, Stand, Kneel

[ReliableOstrich]

You're saying you get to assign the motive to the expression based on your interpretation.

Not trying to get anything locked, simply pointing out what you mean by your actions means less than what others interpret it to mean.

That's just 2017.

just like the swastika example @Urban Cryer used further up in the thread, the confederate flag has a known historical meaning, in addition to modern day use as a sign for hatred and violence.

to the best of my knowledge, taking a knee is generally a sign of respect, prayer, deference, and has rarely, if ever, been used to show disrespect.

i'm not making these things up. just like i'm not making up that 99.999% of the time the handshake is viewed as a pleasant greeting. now if a few folks want to say it's a way to show disrespect, they can do that, but what credibility witll they have.

but back to the topic at hand, how can folks be so threatened/saddened by someone silently taking a knee that they refuse to acknowledge their fellow countrymen being treated as second class citizens by the justice system?

 

[seminole97]

just like the swastika example @Urban Cryer used further up in the thread, the confederate flag has a known historical meaning, in addition to modern day use as a sign for hatred and violence.

Yet it undeniably has multiple meanings, and those are held individually.
I grew up as a little boy watching Dukes of Hazzard each night before going to bed. I associated the flag on that car with 'good ole boys, never meaning no harm' and living on dirt roads like I was at the time.
There was association for me whatsoever with hatred and violence. I'm not wrong in my association, because it's mine and true to my experience.

to the best of my knowledge, taking a knee is generally a sign of respect, prayer, deference, and has rarely, if ever, been used to show disrespect.

Except maybe when someone says, "please stand, remove your hats and direct your attention to the flag..."
If you choose THAT moment to kneel I think it's easily understandable how that is viewed as a rebuke and disrespect.

i'm not making these things up. just like i'm not making up that 99.999% of the time the handshake is viewed as a pleasant greeting.

But that 0.001% of the time...

but back to the topic at hand, how can folks be so threatened/saddened by someone silently taking a knee that they refuse to acknowledge their fellow countrymen being treated as second class citizens by the justice system?

It's funny to me, because as a sports fan I'd heard about the Kap thing last year and being a news junkie have seen how this has blown up. It literally rose to my wife's attention yesterday, and she's angered that 'these millionaires' are disrespecting the flag of a country that provides so much opportunity.

Just curious, what's your basis for the assumption 'fellow countrymen [are] being treated as second class citizens by the justice system?'

 

[West Duval Nole]

I don't think anyone should be telling anyone how to feel or what the symbolism they see in the Anthem or the flag. Because guess what everyone has different life experiences and it may very well mean something different to them than everyone else. So it is OK to agree to disagree.

Not even all veterans even agree on whether it is offensive or not. I know several Vets who absolutely think it is disrespectful regardless of their reason for doing so because they have seen fellow vets die for the symbolism of the flag. While other Vets don't find it offensive just as Villanueva from the Steelers said, I will stand but understand the reason others don't. His life experiences basically dictate to him he will stand, but he won't pretend to understand the life experiences of his fellow players that have grown up in places.

So who is right and who should be telling who what they should feel? It's an opinion and neither are necessarily right or wrong.

It really is quite simple. The NFL has made a decision to allow it. Consumers can choose to consume/watch/attend it or not. I am sure everyone on both sides has heard nearly every single argument for and/or against their position and pretty much no one is changing their mind. So here we are. Can't we just agree to disagree and see how it plays out.

I personally do not allow politics from a company to dictate who I do business with. I let whether I like the product or services provided dictate that. Thus, I will still go to Starbucks, Chick-Fil-A and Target. If I were to search for companies that agreed with all my views in politics, I would not be able to shop or buy anything. But I most certainly respect the right of others to boycott or feel how they want on a particular matter. After all, they have different life experiences and perspectives than I would have.

 

[West Duval Nole]

to the best of my knowledge, taking a knee is generally a sign of respect, prayer, deference, and has rarely, if ever, been used to show disrespect.

So how about sitting during it? I know Kap changed after his talk with a Veteran, but most recently others have gone back to sitting? I guess at what point are you personally going to consider it disrespectful if any.

 

[West Duval Nole]

I'm trying to think if there is a controversy I actually care less about than whether someone stands for the national anthem at one of the thousands of sports games conducted daily and I honestly can't think of one. It's such a nonissue, I really don't care. It's FAR different than when far right groups like the Westboro Baptist Church show up and start purposefully insulting people at their funerals or otherwise are purposefully trying to cause pain. If anything this is the opposite, people trying to turn a leisure activity made "professional" into a political rally and the people engaging in the leisure activity for money saying "pass".

The Westboro Baptist Church is neither Far Left nor Far right as many of their protests are against Veterans at their funerals. They are just far OUT. No political party agrees with their foolishness.

 

[West Duval Nole]

A question.

Erase all this Kaepernick / kneeling stuff from your mind. Pretend it NEVER happened.

Okay, so let's say Russell Wilson and Chris Conte (picked two random dudes) start taking a knee during the anthem after both seeing their mothers pass from ovarian cancer (again picked a random disease and their moms are fine, i hope).

They say they're doing it because ovarian cancer doesn't get the funding or attention it deserves and they want to raise awareness for it and are using this 2-3 min time before each game to do so.

How would America react?

I think a better question to ask would be let's say a Veteran did it like Villanueva from the Pittsburgh Steelers said he was kneeling and would continue to do so because Veterans that serve are not taken care of by the VA the way they should be and do not get the best care on par with elected officials. Then what exactly would people say to that being the cause.

My guess is that they would support it and I would be even willing to bet that everyone would start doing it.

Then also ask what if say someone did it and said their cause was when Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and the Black Lives Matter movement admits they were wrong specifically about the Michael Brown case and the evidence overwhelmingly shows Hands Up Don't shoot was a false narrative? Yet they never came back and revisited and agreed the Officer in that case was and should have been exonerated of any wrong doing or racism. And it was specifically just about that case as they were friends with the Police officer involved in it.

I would be willing to bet the people on the don't kneel side would be absolutely fine with it and the people on the kneeling side would be against it.

 

[DanC78]

I personally do not get offended by anyone who kneels during the national anthem. There is no anger or frustrate or aggravation that happens to me emotionally when I see this happen. However, I do look at the individual who is kneeling and I think, "that guy looks like a complete jerk". Especially when the individual kneeling makes $20 million a year.

 

[RTM58]

just like the swastika example @Urban Cryer to the best of my knowledge, taking a knee is generally a sign of respect, prayer, deference, and has rarely, if ever, been used to show disrespect.

i'm not making these things up. just like i'm not making up that 99.999% of the time the handshake is viewed as a pleasant greeting. now if a few folks want to say it's a way to show disrespect, they can do that, but what credibility witll they have.

You may want frame the argument more accurately as it's a bit more than you're implied "few."

I suspect the only ting this will do is hurt the NFL, which is fine with me. If only they would do more to protest domestic violence (skip a game/skip pay check/make a donation) but that might make the players uncomfortable I suspect.

The Remington survey found that 80 percent of voters want less politics in sports.

Do you think NFL players should stand and be respectful during the national anthem? Yes: 64% No: 24% Unsure: 12%

Do you support protesting during the national anthem at the beginning of NFL games, or is there a more appropriate place for players to protest?
Support: 31%
There is a more appropriate place to protest: 60%
Unsure: 9%

In the future, would you prefer to see more politics, less politics, or the same amount of politics during sporting events?
More politics: 7%
Less politics: 80%
Same amount: 13%

 

[West Duval Nole]

But a lot of veterans and military and police are kneeling too because they believe in the Consititution and the right people have to protest. Nobody is hating on America or the military...

Hmm One may construe the comments as hates America:. The original quote from Kap is: "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color. To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder."

Granted he never said directly he hates America nor was he specifically asked if he hated America. But certainly people may consider that quote as Anti American/ Not proud to be American at minimum or hates America at most. While others may say no, it is mere disappointment in one specific aspect of America. I agree his statements can not be taken to mean he hates the military, but hates America not so sure one way or the other and can see how one may construe his statement as such.

 

[DanC78]

Hmm One may construe the comments as hates America:. The original quote from Kap is: "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color. To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder."

Granted he never said directly he hates America nor was he specifically asked if he hated America. But certainly people may consider that quote as Anti American/ Not proud to be American at minimum or hates America at most. While others may say no, it is mere disappointment in one specific aspect of America. I agree his statements can not be taken to mean he hates the military, but hates America not so sure one way or the other and can see how one may construe his statement as such.

I heard none of it when he made his comments, all it looked like to me was guy being an jerk.

If he truly cared about the cause he'd put together a 30 second commercial and run it for ayear on cable, he could create a website with more information, and then he could spend time traveling around the country during the off season setting up grassroot campaigns to spread and educate people on his cause.

He has MORE than enough cash and time to do this.

When he kneels, I just think he's an idiot.

 

[dmm5157]

I personally do not get offended by anyone who kneels during the national anthem. There is no anger or frustrate or aggravation that happens to me emotionally when I see this happen. However, I do look at the individual who is kneeling and I think, "that guy looks like a complete asshole". Especially when the individual kneeling makes $20 million a year.

I never understood the "you're rich, shut up" angle. Again, these guys didn't grow up rich (most at least) and most will be broke again soon once they retire. Why do we feel like only certain folks are able to have a voice? The ones that need it most aren't in a position to get any exposure.

 

[dmm5157]

I heard none of it when I heard make his comments, all looked like was an asshole to me.

If he truly cared about the cause he'd put together a 30 second commercial and run it for year on cable, he could create an website with more information, and then travel around during the off season setting up grassroot campaigns to spread and educate people on his cause.

He had MORE than enough cash and time to do this.

When he kneels, I just think he's an idiot.

Um, not that all this is about Colin Kaepernick, but he did do that stuff.

https://www.sbnation.com/lookit/201...illion-dollar-pledge-charity-latest-donations

http://kaepernick7.com/

 

[DanC78]

I never understood the "you're rich, shut up" angle. Again, these guys didn't grow up rich (most at least) and most will be broke again soon once they retire. Why do we feel like only certain folks are able to have a voice? The ones that need it most aren't in a position to get any exposure.

No difference if he's poor or rich, id still think they look dumb and embarrassing them self.

Them being rich just makes it look dumber.

Imo

 

[dmm5157]

No difference if he's poor or rich, id still think they look dumb and embarrassing them self.

Them being rich just makes it look dumber.

Imo

If you think once you're wealthy all the issues that exist go away, then you're missing the point.

And therein lies part of the problem that we have in this country. We lack the ability to put ourselves in other people's shoes and share their perspective.

 

[DanC78]

Um, not that all this is about Colin Kaepernick, but he did do that stuff.

https://www.sbnation.com/lookit/201...illion-dollar-pledge-charity-latest-donations

http://kaepernick7.com/

I can respect that!

Doesn't look like an jerk at all...my point exactly.

 

[BarryB1081]

Thing is, if they mandated standing for the anthem, they'd see a backlash from players as well as a boycott from a lot of fans who support protesting police brutality and racial inequality during the anthem.

In fact, many of my friends who support Kap are boycotting the league just like the folks who don't support Kap. Leaving the NFL the loser either way. Lulz @ Goodell on that one I guess.

Curious about this also, would love if Warchant would do a story on this (though I know they should not because they'll lose a handful of subscribers if it's revealed that FSU also engages in "for-pay patriotism".

IMO the NFL's path to a win-win, that both furthers America's promise equality for all and the NFL's goal of making all the money, is as follows...

• Sit down with the players/NFLPA and say "we're going to do November (or Sept, or Dec) as 'Equality Month'", just like October is Breast Cancer Awareness month.
• As part of this, players will be able to present their messages in a variety of formats, from in stadium videos to digital content, and use it to fundraise for a few approved causes.
• The NFL will also start a year-round initiative similar to its Play60 effort, which will work year round to raise awareness and assist players in channeling their money and energy most productively in our common goal of equality, including using the influence and connections of all 32 of the NFL's owners.
• In return, there will be no more kneeling during the anthem, which seem to make some people very upset.

Everyone saves face, those who are upset about players kneeling during the anthem are appeased, players are made more effective in achieving equality for minorities, and the NFL looks like it cares (it doesn't but it just needs to save face).

Some folks who have no desire to actually see equality will continue to be upset, but honestly, society cannot be held back by the few lunatics who prefer 1920 to 2020. They'll also no longer be able to hide behind the anthem as the real source of their butthurt.

At the end of the day "equality" should not be a partisan or political issue, as Americans, we all ought to be pro-equality and to take the other side should be seen as un-American.

What does the National Anthem represent to you?

 

[West Duval Nole]

Um, not that all this is about Colin Kaepernick, but he did do that stuff.

https://www.sbnation.com/lookit/201...illion-dollar-pledge-charity-latest-donations

http://kaepernick7.com/

Was this started before or after he received backlash? I suppose some may say it doesn't matter because he is doing something and the motive shouldn't matter. But I think if this was started well ahead of him receiving backlash then it looks like he did or was wanting to do it as opposed to the appearance of not wanting to be considered a hypocrite for doing nothing else.

 

[DanC78]

I was happy to see Jameis not kneeling.

 

[cmanole]

I was happy to see Jameis not kneeling.

What about Jimbo saying FSU players have a choice?

 

[West Duval Nole]

I was happy to see Jameis not kneeling.

Why just Jameis? I am not sure but I think there were other FSU players that didn't kneel.

 

[DanC78]

What about Jimbo saying FSU players have a choice?

Lol...why would he say anything different? It's an individual choice. He can't tell people what to do when it's not in between the chalk.

 

[DanC78]

Why just Jameis? I am not sure but I think there were other FSU players that didn't kneel.

Im invested emotionally into Jameis and this is not his fight. Save the fight for a cause that is personal to you.

 

[BarryB1081]

Lol...why would he say anything different? It's an individual choice. He can't tell people what to do when it's not in between the chalk.

Plus there actually IS a constitutional right involved when it comes to Florida State University, a state actor. Unlike the NFL and the individual franchises, private sector employers, where no such "right" exists, contrary to sloppy reporting and thinking.

 

[MIKE_G]

I'd scratch my head and wonder "why are they kneeling during the anthem for that?-- what good is that going to do?"

By the same token, what good is standing during the anthem going to do? Not picking on you or anyone in particular. Just don't get why people care. I don't care what the person next to me is doing during the anthem as long as they're not bothering me or purposely trying to cause a scene. Kneeling quietly, just not standing up, reading your text messages, doing a crossword puzzle, etc. How does that impact anyone else?

 

[seminole97]

By the same token, what good is standing during the anthem going to do? Not picking on you or anyone in particular. Just don't get why people care. I dgaf what the person next to me is doing during the anthem as long as they're not bothering me or purposely trying to cause a scene. Kneeling quietly, just not standing up, reading your text messages, doing a crossword puzzle, etc. How does that impact anyone else?

I'm like you... but I draw the line at Sodoku.
Catch you scribbling that during the anthem and somebody is gonna bleed.

 

[seminole97]

 

[Fijimn]

Can we all agree, at a minimum, that the national anthem should be America the Beautiful and not Key's poem set to a British song.

 

[BarryB1081]

Can we all agree, at a minimum, that the national anthem should be America the Beautiful and not Key's poem set to a British song.

I'll give you this, America the Beautiful is a far more acoustically pleasing song.

 

[FSUTribe76]

Can we all agree, at a minimum, that the national anthem should be America the Beautiful and not Key's poem set to a British song.

I'm A OK with swapping out the national anthem and the flag. But especially the national anthem. A poem written by a slaveowner (who was more than "just" a slaveholder he was an attorney whose specialty was fighting abolitionists) celebrating the murder of escaped slaves set to a British drinking song should NEVER have been the National Anthem.

In case someone doesn't know here's the third verse of our "wonderful" national anthem.

"Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps' pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:"

Unfortunately we can't set it to a vote because 'Muricans would probably vote in whatever that "we'll put a boot in your asterisks" song is called as our new National Anthem instead of something decent like America the Beautiful.

 

[BarryB1081]

I'm A OK with swapping out the national anthem and the flag. But especially the national anthem. A poem written by a slaveowner celebrating the murder of escaped slaves set to a British drinking song should NEVER have been the National Anthem.

In case someone doesn't know here's the third verse of our "wonderful" national anthem.

"Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps' pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:"

Unfortunately we can't set it to a vote because 'Muricans would probably vote in whatever that "we'll put a boot in your asterisks" song is called as our new National Anthem instead of something decent like America the Beautiful.

Swapping out the flag? Befuddled.

 

[DanC78]

Bitter folks

Hrc

Plain and simple

 

[seminole97]

Swapping out the flag? Befuddled.

I always thought the s one was cool.

 

[FSUTribe76]

Swapping out the flag? Befuddled.

I'm far less bothered about that than the National Anthem which is annoying, but there's no doubt that the American flag presided over centuries of genocidal "wars" against Native first peoples as well as supported slavery for nearly a century. Plus it's pretty ugly for a flag.

Nothing wrong with swapping out a flag every once in awhile especially since the current country no longer resembles the slaveholding, misogynistic and genocidal bunch of white guys who wanted to enslave blacks and natives and basically enslave Chinese, Mexicans and Irish while killing off any native or dirty Frenchman who got in their way of total control and of course...keeping the women down. Now we only want to basically enslave the Mexicans and other Latino immigrants, imprison the blacks with cruelly long sentences for minor drug and theft offenses well beyond those sentences imposed in colonial or even antebellum years and keep the Muslims out. So it's TOTALLY different. We're cool with women voting now and natives get casinos.

Since we're so different, we should get a new flag celebrating our beloved icons...a 128 ounce TeamGulp from 7-Eleven, an M-16 with crossed M&P 45s from Smith & Wesson, a KFC double down and a can of spray cheese from Walmart.

 

[BarryB1081]

I always thought the s one was cool.

Why is Hungarian flag involved? Befuddling.

 

[BarryB1081]

I'm far less bothered about that than the National Anthem which is annoying, but there's no doubt that the American flag presided over centuries of genocidal "wars" against Native first peoples as well as supported slavery for nearly a century. Plus it's pretty ugly for a flag.

Nothing wrong with swapping out a flag every once in awhile especially since the current country no longer resembles the slaveholding, misogynistic and genocidal bunch of white guys who wanted to enslave blacks and natives and basically enslave Chinese, Mexicans and Irish while killing off any native or dirty Frenchman who got in their way of total control and of course...keeping the women down. Now we only want to basically enslave the Mexicans and other Latino immigrants, imprison the blacks with cruelly long sentences for minor drug and theft offenses well beyond those sentences imposed in colonial or even antebellum years and keep the Muslims out. So it's TOTALLY different. We're cool with women voting now and natives get casinos.

Since we're so different, we should get a new flag celebrating our beloved icons...a 128 ounce TeamGulp from 7-Eleven, an M-16 with crossed M&P 45s from Smith & Wesson, a KFC double down and a can of spray cheese from Walmart.

Ya have to give them "white guys" some props for setting the cornerstone of the greatest, not perfect, country on earth, right? I mean, you're sharing in the bounty of this wonderful capitalistic society, right?

 

[MIKE_G]

I'm like you... but I draw the line at Sodoku.
Catch you scribbling that during the anthem and somebody is gonna bleed.

I was so close to typing Sodoku as an example. Seemed too pretentious. Went with crossword puzzle to be safe.

 

[Urban Cryer]

Exactly.

@Urban Cryer your opinion, as valid as it is, isn't even unanimous among veterans. There is no right or wrong here.

We can argue flags, anthems, kneeling, and for-profit patriotism until the cows come home (I have no cows). But the only thing I see as a clear cut issue is America's continuing struggle to fulfill the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. This is not a partisan or political issue, it's one of equality.

A lot of polls say that more than 50 percent of Americans don't like the idea of kneeling during the national anthem, so while this is clearly a way to get peoples attention, most just see it as being disrespectful, and if it takes away from his cause, well.....

 

[Urban Cryer]

But a lot of veterans and military and police are kneeling too because they believe in the Consititution and the right people have to protest. Nobody is hating on America or the military...

I guess that's open to interpretation, when do you ever have an issue that "offends" 100 percent of the people? Hell, there are something like 150 Americans fighting for ISIL in Syria right now.......

 

[Urban Cryer]

This turns out to not be true, it's internet baloney. Sitting/kneeling is not a fineable offense.

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/for-petes-sake/article175221581.html

It is a fire-able offense, and like I said before, the NFL has not dealt with this properly from the get go, which will effect the bottom line.

http://www.thewrap.com/nfl-free-speech-first-amendment-colin-kaepernick-trump/

 

[Urban Cryer]

I'm far less bothered about that than the National Anthem which is annoying, but there's no doubt that the American flag presided over centuries of genocidal "wars" against Native first peoples as well as supported slavery for nearly a century. Plus it's pretty ugly for a flag.

Nothing wrong with swapping out a flag every once in awhile especially since the current country no longer resembles the slaveholding, misogynistic and genocidal bunch of white guys who wanted to enslave blacks and natives and basically enslave Chinese, Mexicans and Irish while killing off any native or dirty Frenchman who got in their way of total control and of course...keeping the women down. Now we only want to basically enslave the Mexicans and other Latino immigrants, imprison the blacks with cruelly long sentences for minor drug and theft offenses well beyond those sentences imposed in colonial or even antebellum years and keep the Muslims out. So it's TOTALLY different. We're cool with women voting now and natives get casinos.

Since we're so different, we should get a new flag celebrating our beloved icons...a 128 ounce TeamGulp from 7-Eleven, an M-16 with crossed M&P 45s from Smith & Wesson, a KFC double down and a can of spray cheese from Walmart.

You're one of those Columbus Day supporters huh?