Yes I did with this was handled poorly. That doesn't even remotely agree with the original assertion. Maybe you should follow the thread.
There are no long term adverse effects of mRNA vaccines
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If you are unaware of the statistics of a poor health outcome based on being vaxed or unvaxed you are unqualified to have an opinion on the subject. I read an article recently that said an unvaccinated person is 40 to 50 times more likely to require hospitalization due to covid than a vacinated one. I believe it likely does all the things you suggest but asking for specifics is just clouding the issue.
i'd like to know what parameters were used to arrive at that conclusion. was age and booster dependent?
there is absolutely a clear benefit in covid vaccinations reducing hospitalizations but that number overall is more in the 5-15x range of an infected person being likely to be hospitalized if unvaccinated vs a fully vaxxed person. that range being quite age dependent.
It was age dependent and I meant to put that in. If you over the age of 45 you were 40 to 50 times more likely to be hospitalized if you were unvaccinated. The number goes down or up depending on age.
No. It’s not. The likelihood of me being hospitalized is tiny. And I’m in my 50s. It’s insane to make that argument about healthy young people. Or folks who’ve had CoVid.
To make what argument?
I think it’s “insane” for anyone without specific vaccine contraindications to think that the tiny risk profile of the vaccines is worth refusing vaccination (no matter what kind of comical “freedom fighting” sense of machismo some derive from that) and risking the much higher probability of severe outcomes if you do contract Covid without having been vaxxed than if fully vaxxed and boosted (which might merely become the new fully vaxxed, and that’s fine too.)
Yes, I understand you tend to want to focus on the issue of mandates, but I’m not referencing that at all, and mandates wouldn’t even need to be part of the conversation if there hadn’t been so much irrational, politically affiliated vaccine and mask and social distancing fear-mongering and mocking from the get go.
Hopefully it’s all or largely behind us soon.
It was the Trump vaccine. I don’t recall a single rational conservative politician ever speak against vaccines. The issue was always mandates for all but the craziest.
Yes........a lot of talking by each other.
A 50 something person in good overall general health has a very small risk of being hospitalized or dying of Covid. At the same time getting vaccinated/boostered reduces that small risk. Both are true.
Cumulatively 1.2% of 50-64 year olds have been hospitalized with Covid. Whether that risk is acceptable to you is up to the individual. But it is easy to severely reduce that risk by getting vaccinated/boostered.
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Anyone that thinks the risk of being hospitalized is tiny must live in a cave. If you have any kind of circle of friends you have probably had an acquaintance or two that died from this. I have had 3 friends in their 50s and early 60s die from it. I have many other acquaintances that were hospitalized. This is the worst health crisis probably in the history of the country. Remember most of the other health crisis's occurred before the invention of even antibiotics. Sure only 1 in every 330 people or so have died from. Oh by the way that is a very high number.
I just can't muster up your level of fear. I personally only know of a less than 10 people (really only 7) that were hospitialized. 2 of those were only overnight. 4 others that had bad outcomes had several co-mormbitities. I know hundreds of people who were diagnosed with symptoms. The reality in my world was the response to Covid was more devastating than the disease
I got Covid in March of 2020. It was nothing for me. I have been vaccinated and boosted. I have no concern for myself. I just want it to end.
Are your numbers based on the entire population of over 50 or the number of people over 50 that tested positive. There are around 100 million people in the US over 50. I do not know how many of those tested positive.
I have other questions about these numbers. The 1.2 percent is based on a population that includes both unvaccinated and vaccinated. The CDC released numbers this week that seniors are as much as 50 times more likely to be hospitalized if they are unvaccinated. That 1.2 percent could be way higher for the unvaccinated based off that information. I am really not concerned with who is right or wrong on this I just think those numbers could be very misleading without more information. Also I think this would be a highly vaccinated group which makes me think that risk is much higher for the unvaccinated.
not taking someone up on a recommendation doesn’t justify making the recommendation a requirement. “We wouldn’t need to require you to say that you’re for/against x issue if you’d just say it”; “we wouldn’t need to break down your front door if you’d just let us in.”
putting aside whether a mandate is legal and any negative side effects-known and unknown-of the vaccine, I think a mandate is terrible policy. There’s quite a bit we don’t know about the vaccine and how it affects (or doesn’t) someone’s development of natural immunity if they’re infected post shot. If there’s a waning efficacy in the vaccine, and the vaccine targets 1 protein of many in the virus, the person may (emphasizing “may”) not develop as robust NI as someone who’s not vaccinated. Now, that may be an acceptable outcome for someone in their mid 70s with diabetes and other issues, but I think that’s an awful outcome for a healthy 20 something. I’m not making the claim that it retards the development of NI, but it’s something we don’t know right now.
Again, I wasn’t acquiescing to AllNoles’ desire to turn all Covid discussions into “it’s really just all about aversion to mandates” debates, which, recency bias aside, most of the Covid controversies to date have not been about.
And I wonder if you apply the same level of speculative worry to all vaccines, medicines and other things you put in your body as you seem to be doing to these Trump-championed (yeh semi tongue-in-cheek there) Covid vaccines.
Just to set the record straight I am against a government mandated vaccine requirement. The main reason is because the labor market is so tight right now and a mandate would make that worse. I also think that a mandate at this point is fruitless. It was probably unrealistic from the start to think the vaccine could get us out of the pandemic. The supply and the logistics to vaccinate the worlds population was never going to sufficient. This current variant came from South Africa. I am glad I got vaccinated because it makes me more immune/protected but at this point if people want to take the risk of being unvaccinated I believe that is up to them.
There’s always a cost-benefit analysis for any medication. I’m not going to accept pain killers for a hairline fracture in my wrist.
Yes, the risk is much higher for the unvaccinated, that much we know. Couldn't find the actual numbers, but somewhere someone has done the math. Probably on the CDC website somewhere.............
Again, Covid was always going to become endemic..............just the nature of respiratory viruses. As we build up immunity through various sources, the mortality rate decreases. As we get anti-virals to use, the mortality rate decreases. We are about there now.
people 50+ make up about 36% of the US population (~118M), about 32% of all covid cases, about 77% of covid hospitalizations and about 93% of the covid deaths.
Unfortunately, when it comes to Covid matters, your recall of what any leader has or hasn't said has not proven to be particularly reliable. Your claim here is reminiscent of when we confirmed in the deleted Covid thread that despite your claim that you heard 3 Democratic leaders allegedly saying that getting Covid if not vaccinated means sure death, that was not what they actually said.
It doesn't matter at all whether anti-vaxxers (or mockers or dismissers or whatever we call them) spew their dangerous nonsense while also railing against mandates or separately... it's still just as influential and damaging when they promote distrust of vaccines. And there's no debate that the % of vaccine rejectors among US adults has been far more heavily skewed to GOP voters ever since Covid vaccines were first offered. This certainly is not because conservative politicians (nor other GOP thought leaders) sending anti-vaccine messaging has been the rarity you suggest.
I have no clue which GOP'ers you consider "rational conservatives" vs. which ones are "the craziest" outliers, but here's a very small selection of the vaccine fear-mongering and other anti-vax nonsense put forth by your leadership, which seems to have escaped your recall:
Madison Cawthorn, (R) NC, 8/29/21 -- After encouraging a group in NC to resist vaccination by getting religious exemption forms filled out by a conservative pastor -- "There are a lot of vaccine injuries that are starting to happen. I’m starting to look at the VAERS database specifically with this vaccine, the damage it’s causing the people, with infertility, with miscarriages, with deaths, uh, the list is a mile long ... heart attacks … defend your children … it’s not worth it to put an experimental jab into your sons’ arms."
Sen. Ron Johnson, (R) WI, has invited anti-vax whackos to speak, and has repeatedly suggested conspiratorial motives and spread doubts and misinformation about Covid vaccines (often posed as leading questions)... one of many examples -- in a May 2021 interview with conservative radio host Vicki McKenna, Johnson suggested there have been thousands of deaths connected to Covid-19 vaccinations and also suggested that getting the vaccine after having Covid might kill you -- "I'm talking to doctors who have, since day one, been concerned about vaccinating people who've already had Covid, because you die, not of Covid, you die of the immune system overreaction to Covid."
Marjorie Taylor Greene, (R) GA, is responsible for way too many to list, but here's one example -- July 2021, "With 6,000 vax related deaths and many concerning side effects reported, the vax should be a choice not a mandate for everyone". And it should be obvious to all that the explicit anti-vaccine fear-mongering included in that statement doesn't magically get unheard just because she spewed it while speaking out against mandates.
Lauren Boebert, (R) CO, too much anti-vax idiocy to list
Sen. Rand Paul (R), KY - again, too much to bother pulling excerpts
And it's not just what they say, but also all the anti-vax nutcases they validate and promote by inviting them to speak, for example:
Dr. Sherri Tenpenny and her craziness about Covid vaccines making you magnetic, invited by GOP Rep to speak to Ohio House - https://www.cincinnati.com/story/ne...y-magnetic-anti-vaccine-testimony/7966660002/
Furthermore, "rational conservative politicians" aren't the only GOP-leaning decision influencers responsible for the significantly slower and lower acceptance of the vaccines by those identifying as Republicans ever since the vaccines became available.
What about the relentless vaccine skepticism promoted by Tucker Carlson (not just about mandates) for many months now, and how so many GOPers have embraced and promoted the anti-vax fear-mongering of Dr. Robert Malone and his ilk? GOP thought leaders like Sarah Palin boasting that she wouldn't get the vaccine unless it's "over my dead body", and that she didn't need to get vaccinated since she already had natural immunity from contracting Covid (before contracting Covid again just this week.)
Anyway, yeh, the issue hasn't just been mandates for "all but the craziest", unless you consider most GOP vaccine skeptics to be among that group you dismiss as outliers. One would hope that politicians and other thought leaders whose objection is (allegedly) just the mandate part of things could communicate that without also fueling and elevating vaccine skepticism and resistance at the same time.
Good night. Hope your accident recovery is progressing well.
^^^^It is rapidly burning out. I wonder if there will eventually be a sober/objective review of all of the wildly inconsistent information — and vacillating “rules” — that was/were promulgated throughout the pandemic?
Or is an accurate/objective retrospective even possible, given the partisan and polarizing nature of the whole episode?
If you take into account vaccinated vs unvaccinated and use the recent CDC data which states that over 50 age group is 40 times more likely to be hospitalized. I believe it will fall in the risk being 12 percent risk to unvaccinated and .03 percent risk to the vaccinated. Pretty startling numbers.
I agree. There were people that staked out territory from the very beginning, using "follow the science" as their battle cry. Some of that science was correct, and some of it was wrong. The parts they were wrong about, are never acknowledged or get some revisionist history. They enjoyed their bully pulpit so much, they hate to see their self anointed moral superiority fade. They seem to have been the most politicized group from the very beginning, but that is not surprising.
I was looking at the 50-64 age group. Those are cumulative numbers...........so includes the year before vaccines. Also, it took a while to get that age group vaccinated. I believe even now only 70% of the 50-64 age group is vaccinated with the two shots and half that boosted. The cumulative raw numbers of hospitalizations are 77K over the two plus years out of approximately 40MM or .2%. So, the hospitalization rate of 1.2% as listed by the CDC in that age group doesn't line up with the raw numbers they provide. I must be missing something.....but all those numbers are taken off the CDC website.
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The later is more likely.........at least in the near future.
Please do not get this thread deleted with your nonsense. Most of those quotes are literally true statements, target mandates specifically or are from irrelevant people. You don't quote anything from Rand Paul... a doctor. Trying to gaslight by calling Palin a "thought leader"... hope you'll delete the post.
Thanks. Never even heard of most of them. Rand Paul is mostly right. He’s asking very good questions and pointing out what a horrendous leader Fauci is.
You can just look how political this is based on how the media/left are responding to people like Bill Maher who even point out we need to be back to normal.
The CoVid response has been way worse than the virus. And I do realize how much impact we have had from the virus.
No nonsense at all. My post stands. It was in response to AllNoles’ inaccurate claim about zero “rational conservative politicians” ever speaking against vaccines, which has actually been rampant with and without mandate commentary as well. And as anyone who is being reasonable would acknowledge, vaccine fearmongering and mocking is just as counterproductive to public health, medical cost savings and all the other communal benefits of vaccination whether it’s also accompanied by mandate mentions or not. (And likely worse when it comes with the added fear-mongering of “they’re also coming to take X, Y and Z from you!!!”)
Have a good one.
Your clearly looking at this through a political lens and don't possess the objectivity to have a meaningful discussion on the subject. Maybe if you leave the thread we can continue the discussion without getting this one deleted as well.
Personally I know a dozen or so people who tested positive including myself. None required hospitalization and all recovered fine. I also know a few people that were "positive" and never got sick as well as a few that were sick but didn't get tested and probably would have been positive.
Not saying everyone's experiences are the same or downplaying what impact this has had on people but I look at it like this. There are around 8 billion people on the planet, 353 million cases of covid and 5.6 million deaths give or take. 4.4% of the population has contracted covid and .07% of the population has died from it. About 1.6% of people with covid has died from it or with it and that number is declining.
I hope when all this is over there is a full accounting of what happened, what went wrong and who (if applicable) was responsible.
The conservative politicians I named are all so frequently in the news that it’s hard to believe that anybody debating this issue from any angle would never have heard of every one of them. And I wasn’t aware that you meant to add the important qualifier that you’ve never heard any speaking against vaccines except for cases where you agreed with what they were saying.
In any event, here’s hoping that the Covid injuries and deaths are largely behind us, even though every one of them remains just as regrettable and impactful to that family and friends and healthcare workers whether at the tail end of this or earlier.
You’ll admit it’s funny that you think your commentary in any of these Covid threads has been more objective and free of any political lens, right?
I’m one of the few commenters who has repeatedly specified “either administration” so as not to politicize the matter, when not specifically responding to a more one-sided allegation such as the AllNoles quote I referenced.
Carry on.
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"15 days to stop the spread." LOL.
The mask insanity (and repeated flip-flops).
10 days in isolation (or 5 when select industries are failing).
And today, various "therapies" that had widely be used are suddenly "not approved" by the FDA.
Social distancing is essential (unless we are packing you into an airplane).
On and on and on.
Honestly I've heard of Rand Paul, and Johnson. I had to look up the others.
Not political at all. However, I do have a opinion on the whole matter which doesn't have anything to do with politics. This is the problem with these discussions. People think if you disagree with the main narrative or are against mandates, shots and masks your on one side or the other. My opinion throughout has been the same regardless of who is in office.
Very impressive self-awareness. Thanks for sharing. Best wishes to you.
Go Noles!
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