Nope not even close to accurate. Your crowd goes from one nonsensical argument to the next one. Virus's mutate. The flue vaccine is strain specific every year and their ability to predict the dominant strain determines the current years efficacy. Normally around 60 percent. Yet it still called a vaccine. This was well communicated and if you missed it that is on you. I am tired of debating obvious points. Go back and look.
What I Don’t Get About Vaccine
- Thread starter RONole
- Start date
My initial point--and one you have now conceded--was that freedoms/rights WERE taken away during the pandemic.
The right to due process and confronting your accuser face to face are constitutional rights. A pandemic cannot suspend constitutional rights. Some courts refused to do their job during the pandemic--with a smaller number still refusing to do so--but that doesn't make the right optional or a mere suggestion.
I literally went back and pulled articles/press releases from April and October 2021, claiming the shots had a 90+% immunization rate against Covid-19.
Of the "10 Things About the COVID-19 Vaccine for Children" that the CDC wants you to know, #1 is its 90% efficacy rate at preventing covid-19 infections in 5-11 year old kids. Over the last 3+ pages of this thread, y'all ridiculed anyone recalling the immunization claims made over the last 12 months. Turns out they were correct. You may not believe the CDC/Pfizer/Moderna statements (I didn't either), but the claims were made--and expressly used to justify EUAs and later FDA approval.
10 Things About the COVID-19 Vaccine for Children | CDC
10 Things About the COVID-19 Vaccine for Children Facts and information about the COVID-19 vaccine for children ages 5 through 11 years of age, as well as quick tips for parents and caregivers. Learn more.
That is not what I said. I said that we have always been warned that new variants could occur that could reduce vaccine efficacy. Against all the variants until Omicron that efficacy has been high. This is high school level biology science. I knew this before Covid and I am not in the scientific community.I literally went back and pulled articles/press releases from April and October 2021, claiming the shots had a 90+% immunization rate against Covid-19.
Of the "10 Things About the COVID-19 Vaccine for Children" that the CDC wants you to know, #1 is its 90% efficacy rate at preventing covid-19 infections in 5-11 year old kids. Over the last 3+ pages of this thread, y'all ridiculed anyone recalling the immunization claims made over the last 12 months. Turns out they were correct. You may not believe the CDC/Pfizer/Moderna statements (I didn't either), but the claims were made--and expressly used to justify EUAs and later FDA approval.
10 Things About the COVID-19 Vaccine for Children | CDC
10 Things About the COVID-19 Vaccine for Children Facts and information about the COVID-19 vaccine for children ages 5 through 11 years of age, as well as quick tips for parents and caregivers. Learn more.www.cdc.gov
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You keep saying it’s an established right “face to face.” Some courts have said it is right. Some of said it is not a right currently. Therefore, it cannot be a fundamental right.
Link me the case where the USSC has said during the Covid pandemic witnesses must be unmasked. Happy to review it.
Coy v Iowa involved a complete screen being placed between a defendant and a child sexual assault victim, which is not the same thing.
"Even if the Constitution has taken a holiday during this pandemic, it cannot become a sabbatical . . . [t]oday, a majority of the Court makes this plain." Roman Catholic Diocese of Brooklyn v. Cuomo, 592 U.S. ___, ___ (2020) (Gorsuch, J., concurring). This isn't a difficult concept. There are specific, narrow exceptions to the confrontation clause. A general, blanket exception is wildly unconstitutional. It also triggers significant due process concerns. Judges presiding over civil trials have even been squeamish about requests to testify while masked. And many have rightly refused to allow it. Some, obviously, have gone full-covid and allowed or required masks. Point being--it's nonsense and people have lost rights/freedoms because of gov't action during covid. That some judges have permitted masked witnesses is exactly the point.
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Okay. I suspect there is 0 protection against infection, but the claim was 90+% efficacy at giving the vaccinated immunity against COVID, not just the alpha variant. There was no messaging that the vaccine wouldn't work against future variants until the "breakthrough cases are rare" narrative collapsed on its own terms.
Yes they absolutely did - from the get go. To argue otherwise reduces your credibility. It is also common knowledge. Everything that is alive is capable of mutating. Everything that is alive and some sort of pest is capable of defeating our measures against it by mutating. Over prescribing antibiotics can create bacteria that are immune to our current antibiotics. Insects can become immune to insecticides. Virus's evolve so that different variants become dominant. This was one of the reasons they wanted everyone vaccinated. If you allow the virus to spread in the environment more variants will arise. This was said over and over again. I do not how anyone missed it.
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Once again that case is not on point and is still is not a case about mask mandates in the courtroom. I'm going to assume there is no ruling from the USSC on this because comments from a Judge in dicta in a case not on point to what we're talking about is not a judicial ruling on mask mandates during a criminal trial. Your own personal analysis extrapolating other rulings to applying to our discussion does mean it exists. The state and US supreme court's could arrive at your ultimate conclusion but they have not so it's not a guaranteed freedom at this point.
First, I'll admit "my bad" on one aspect of this... my expectations are probably too high.
'Real world' study by CDC shows Pfizer and Moderna vaccines were 90% effective
A new study suggests the messenger RNA vaccines produced by Moderna and the Pfizer-BioNTech partnership appeared to be 90% effective in preventing Covid-19 infection in a real-world setting.www.statnews.com
FAQ: Children's Vaccines
WebMD provides answers to common questions about children's vaccines, including when they should be given and possible side effects.www.webmd.com
From webmd table Pfizer and Moderna clinical trials show 94-95% efficacy at preventing infection.
CDC claims 90% effectiveness at creating immunity. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7013e3.htm
You can find others with google. You can also find preinfection therapeutics with a google search. CDC touts them as well.
and the prior definition of “vaccine” does the heavy lifting for classifying something with a high immunization rate as a vaccine.
When we're discussing a genuinely material topic (for example, a pandemic that has already killed over 830,000 of our fellow Americans, landed many more in hospitals, overtaxed our health care resources nationwide, cost us all billions of dollars, etc.), I expect that those engaging in the conversation in more than just a drive-by nature, and especially those who consider their input sufficiently well-informed to be insisting that something the entire medical community calls a vaccine actually is not,
a) care enough to actually read multiple relevant studies and check details and context around fun factoids they cite rather than merely cherry-picking headlines or excerpts from brief summaries or other incomplete source material they particularly like,
b) that they do not "misremember" or hyperbolize or otherwise fabricate what public leaders, subject matter experts and others have written or said on the matter in the past (as AllNoles did with his Booker, Warren and Biden revisions, and as plenty of folks seem to do with supposed "promises" around vaccine effectiveness),
c) that they are well informed enough about the subject matter to understand what things like vaccines (a drug category that has been around for many decades) do and do not entail,
d) that they can process concepts that aren't convenient but are still true and important (for example, the unpredictability of new variants of a disease, the changing nature of medical science, the fact that English is an ever-changing living language, etc.), and
e) that they have some self-awareness about the risks of relying upon any narrow echo-chamber for their "news" and education on the matter and about how little they actually know about topic X, Y or Z.
Apparently, especially on any message board nowadays, it really is about political tribalism, quick definitive emotion-driven takes, scoring perceived points and applause from the peanut gallery rather than truly sussing out where our assumptions and interpretations might be (often are) faulty.
But I'll try again anyway...
As I already asked AllNoles -- from where is he (and similar mask/vaccine mockers or minimizers) getting the idea that Covid-19 vaccines have been promised to be X% effective in stopping infection against any and all strains of Covid-19 AND also that something cannot qualify as a vaccine if it does not meet that particular minimum threshold against getting infected, no matter how successful it is in boosting/enhancing immune response such that severity of outcomes after getting infected are reduced?
You brushed over the second part of that question (weakly relying on the fact that the dictionary definition of vaccine has been updated to somehow prove that Covid-19 vaccines aren't vaccines -- laughable.)
To address the first part, you came back with this citation: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7013e3.htm
I will admit that if one were to rely solely upon that one citation from April 2021, which relied upon findings before the more-infectious Delta strain was first detected in the US in May of 2021, and which failed to properly caution about the uncertainty around future variants, they might come away with the misunderstanding that Covid-19 vaccines were equally reliable against transmission of all current and future variations of Covid-19.
I'm sure you can find plenty of individual articles, leadership messaging and even studies, especially in the earlier days of Covid-19, that failed to remind everybody that viruses are unpredictable as they mutate, and also to be clear about the multiple objectives of vaccination.
But if you're going to go so far as to suggest that Covid-19 vaccine isn't a vaccine, one would think you at least have enough basic understanding of diseases that you already understand the risks of variants, as well as understanding that there is no minimum protection against transmission that is required for something to qualify as a vaccine, while ignoring the other important vaccine functions.
Some good reading in that regard -- https://cen.acs.org/biological-chem...rpret-new-studies-coronavirus-variants/99/i32
One important excerpt - "We’re hearing a lot about infections in vaccinated individuals. Does this mean the vaccines aren’t working?
No. The number 1 goal of the COVID-19 vaccines is to prevent severe disease and death. By that measure, the shots are by and large still a success, Presti says. But the variants may force us to reset our expectations for what the vaccines can do. “Very few vaccines completely block infection,” Presti says. As variants evolve to be more infectious and partially evade our antibody responses, mild infections may become more common."
One thing that makes Covid-19 novel coronavirus so unique and unpredictable is that it has mutated more significantly than have other coronaviruses. (Feel free to read about that if interested.) Hopefully that stops with Omicron, but who knows at this point.
Beyond Omicron: what’s next for COVID’s viral evolution
The rapid spread of new variants offers clues to how SARS-CoV-2 is adapting and how the pandemic will play out over the next several months.
www.nature.com
In this weird alternative reality world where true expertise is belittled, I really don't know if you'll consider Johns Hopkins a credible source, but just in case you do, here's some good reading about Covid variants, which includes:
"Being fully vaccinated for COVID-19 can protect you from the delta variant, but breakthrough infections sometimes occur.
All three of the F.D.A.-authorized COVID-19 vaccines can protect you from the delta variant. For Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, you need both doses for maximum protection. People should know that vaccines are very effective at preventing the most severe forms of COVID-19, but breakthrough infections can occur and caution is still warranted after becoming vaccinated.
While the authorized COVID-19 vaccines are not perfect, they are highly effective against serious coronavirus disease and reduce the risk of hospitalization and death.
Other vaccines available in other countries may not be as effective in protecting you from the delta variant and other mutations of the coronavirus.
Although vaccines afford very high protection, infection with the delta and other variants remain possible. Fortunately, vaccination, even among those who acquire infections, appears to prevent serious illness, hospitalization and death from COVID-19."
COVID Variants: What You Should Know
The new variants (originally called strains) raise questions: Are these coronaviruses more contagious? Will the vaccines still work? Are there different things you should do to keep safe?
A more current update of that JH article might also discuss the value of boosters -- and even explore if they are indeed merely boosters or if our most recent learnings must move "full vaccination" to 3 shots instead of 2, with refreshers annually or whatever....NOT some conspiracy or admission that vaccines aren't vaccines, merely that viruses mutate, some more than others and with greater infectiousness as well.
I'm assuming that you chose not to list any of the specific "pre-infection therapeutics" which you (and AllNoles) referred to in previous posts and instead said I should just Google it, since there aren't any such things that resemble Covid-19 vaccines in all the attributes that actually make a vaccine a vaccine.
If you're referring to Prep for HIV, you might need to do some Googling for yourself, specifically "Is Prep a vaccine?" (spoiler - it isn't, and when you read up on the reasons it is not, for example the need to take it on an ongoing daily basis, rather than the months-long or years-long protective benefits of different types of vaccines, that might help you understand that Covid-19 vaccine is indeed a vaccine, even if its efficacy in stopping infection -- merely one benefit -- varies by strain.)
If there are other drugs that qualify as "pre-infection therapeutics", but which actually do mimic the functions and benefits of Covid-19 vaccines, please list them.
Lastly, neither of you has bothered to address the curiosity that while all of the properly qualified groups I previously listed have always and continue to refer to the Covid-19 vaccines as "vaccines", it's only random message board posters who instead insist they are only "pre-therapeutics" or similarly contrived less-than-vaccine labels.
Why is that?
ok, that's it for today. Gotta' be productive.
Have a good one.
Here's your receipt from your president.. July 2021 he either lied, mislead, or had NO CLUE even as data was coming in from Israel that the Vax LOL! (really the shot) Wasnt working against delta.. "If your vaxed your not going to be hospitalized, not going to be in ICU or DIe" NO WHERE does he say it is 90% effective!!
go to 2:29 mark
and remember this is your trusted News source CNN!! not some right wing blog
I posted CDC link stating otherwise. If they wanted to cabin it to 1 strain, they are still welcome to do so. But the post is on their website, and is still active. It's false, at best.
Regardless, the US and the world generally were completely ill prepared to deal with the pandemic and how to message it. One hand never knew what the other was doing. The media made all of it much much worse. I hope we learned from it for when an ever worse virus/bacteria comes around but I doubt it.
This is the most triggered post I've read on here. I posted a CDC link from October 2021 claiming the vaccine is 90% effective at immunizing children from infection. Not some early 2021 messaging. They don't differentiate variants. They should.First, I'll admit "my bad" on one aspect of this... my expectations are probably too high.
When we're discussing a genuinely material topic (for example, a pandemic that has already killed over 830,000 of our fellow Americans, landed many more in hospitals, overtaxed our health care resources nationwide, cost us all billions of dollars, etc.), I expect that those engaging in the conversation in more than just a drive-by nature, and especially those who consider their input sufficiently well-informed to be insisting that something the entire medical community calls a vaccine actually is not,
a) care enough to actually read multiple relevant studies and check details and context around fun factoids they cite rather than merely cherry-picking headlines or excerpts from brief summaries or other incomplete source material they particularly like,
b) that they do not "misremember" or hyperbolize or otherwise fabricate what public leaders, subject matter experts and others have written or said on the matter in the past (as AllNoles did with his Booker, Warren and Biden revisions, and as plenty of folks seem to do with supposed "promises" around vaccine effectiveness),
c) that they are well informed enough about the subject matter to understand what things like vaccines (a drug category that has been around for many decades) do and do not entail,
d) that they can process concepts that aren't convenient but are still true and important (for example, the unpredictability of new variants of a disease, the changing nature of medical science, the fact that English is an ever-changing living language, etc.), and
e) that they have some self-awareness about the risks of relying upon any narrow echo-chamber for their "news" and education on the matter and about how little they actually know about topic X, Y or Z.
Apparently, especially on any message board nowadays, it really is about political tribalism, quick definitive emotion-driven takes, scoring perceived points and applause from the peanut gallery rather than truly sussing out where our assumptions and interpretations might be (often are) faulty.
But I'll try again anyway...
As I already asked AllNoles -- from where is he (and similar mask/vaccine mockers or minimizers) getting the idea that Covid-19 vaccines have been promised to be X% effective in stopping infection against any and all strains of Covid-19 AND also that something cannot qualify as a vaccine if it does not meet that particular minimum threshold against getting infected, no matter how successful it is in boosting/enhancing immune response such that severity of outcomes after getting infected are reduced?
You brushed over the second part of that question (weakly relying on the fact that the dictionary definition of vaccine has been updated to somehow prove that Covid-19 vaccines aren't vaccines -- laughable.)
To address the first part, you came back with this citation: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7013e3.htm
I will admit that if one were to rely solely upon that one citation from April 2021, which relied upon findings before the more-infectious Delta strain was first detected in the US in May of 2021, and which failed to properly caution about the uncertainty around future variants, they might come away with the misunderstanding that Covid-19 vaccines were equally reliable against transmission of all current and future variations of Covid-19.
I'm sure you can find plenty of individual articles, leadership messaging and even studies, especially in the earlier days of Covid-19, that failed to remind everybody that viruses are unpredictable as they mutate, and also to be clear about the multiple objectives of vaccination.
But if you're going to go so far as to suggest that Covid-19 vaccine isn't a vaccine, one would think you at least have enough basic understanding of diseases that you already understand the risks of variants, as well as understanding that there is no minimum protection against transmission that is required for something to qualify as a vaccine, while ignoring the other important vaccine functions.
Some good reading in that regard -- https://cen.acs.org/biological-chem...rpret-new-studies-coronavirus-variants/99/i32
One important excerpt - "We’re hearing a lot about infections in vaccinated individuals. Does this mean the vaccines aren’t working?
No. The number 1 goal of the COVID-19 vaccines is to prevent severe disease and death. By that measure, the shots are by and large still a success, Presti says. But the variants may force us to reset our expectations for what the vaccines can do. “Very few vaccines completely block infection,” Presti says. As variants evolve to be more infectious and partially evade our antibody responses, mild infections may become more common."
One thing that makes Covid-19 novel coronavirus so unique and unpredictable is that it has mutated more significantly than have other coronaviruses. (Feel free to read about that if interested.) Hopefully that stops with Omicron, but who knows at this point.
Beyond Omicron: what’s next for COVID’s viral evolution
The rapid spread of new variants offers clues to how SARS-CoV-2 is adapting and how the pandemic will play out over the next several months.
In this weird alternative reality world where true expertise is belittled, I really don't know if you'll consider Johns Hopkins a credible source, but just in case you do, here's some good reading about Covid variants, which includes:
"Being fully vaccinated for COVID-19 can protect you from the delta variant, but breakthrough infections sometimes occur.
All three of the F.D.A.-authorized COVID-19 vaccines can protect you from the delta variant. For Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, you need both doses for maximum protection. People should know that vaccines are very effective at preventing the most severe forms of COVID-19, but breakthrough infections can occur and caution is still warranted after becoming vaccinated.
While the authorized COVID-19 vaccines are not perfect, they are highly effective against serious coronavirus disease and reduce the risk of hospitalization and death.
Other vaccines available in other countries may not be as effective in protecting you from the delta variant and other mutations of the coronavirus.
Although vaccines afford very high protection, infection with the delta and other variants remain possible. Fortunately, vaccination, even among those who acquire infections, appears to prevent serious illness, hospitalization and death from COVID-19."
COVID Variants: What You Should Know
The new variants (originally called strains) raise questions: Are these coronaviruses more contagious? Will the vaccines still work? Are there different things you should do to keep safe?www.hopkinsmedicine.org
A more current update of that JH article might also discuss the value of boosters -- and even explore if they are indeed merely boosters or if our most recent learnings must move "full vaccination" to 3 shots instead of 2, with refreshers annually or whatever....NOT some conspiracy or admission that vaccines aren't vaccines, merely that viruses mutate, some more than others and with greater infectiousness as well.
I'm assuming that you chose not to list any of the specific "pre-infection therapeutics" which you (and AllNoles) referred to in previous posts and instead said I should just Google it, since there aren't any such things that resemble Covid-19 vaccines in all the attributes that actually make a vaccine a vaccine.
If you're referring to Prep for HIV, you might need to do some Googling for yourself, specifically "Is Prep a vaccine?" (spoiler - it isn't, and when you read up on the reasons it is not, for example the need to take it on an ongoing daily basis, rather than the months-long or years-long protective benefits of different types of vaccines, that might help you understand that Covid-19 vaccine is indeed a vaccine, even if its efficacy in stopping infection -- merely one benefit -- varies by strain.)
If there are other drugs that qualify as "pre-infection therapeutics", but which actually do mimic the functions and benefits of Covid-19 vaccines, please list them.
Lastly, neither of you has bothered to address the curiosity that while all of the properly qualified groups I previously listed have always and continue to refer to the Covid-19 vaccines as "vaccines", it's only random message board posters who instead insist they are only "pre-therapeutics" or similarly contrived less-than-vaccine labels.
Why is that?
ok, that's it for today. Gotta' be productive.
Have a good one.
We agree that the covid shot's purpose is to reduce severity/death. We apparently agree that the shot does not prevent transmission. We disagree on whether it's still a vaccine if it isn't effective at immunizing the vaccinated.
LOL... is there any particular reason (yes there is) that you didn't suggest starting at the 2 minute mark rather than 2:29? Context is key. You know that, right? President Biden first explained that the overwhelming majority of recent deaths were among those who were unvaccinated, and then he said what you quoted immediately following that, so that anyone who listened to the entire thing would know it wasn't any guarantee that it's impossible to be hospitalized or die if you get vaccinated, but that it's much much more unlikely given recent stats.
I heard nothing in that little excerpt about guaranteeing that vaccination means you won't get Covid (particularly Omicron) or infect someone else.
What's your point?
A large majority of Dade County residents ( by far exceeds that state average of 61%)have been jabbed - and the Omicron numbers there are huge. Including the vaccinated. It’s not respecting that barrier at all. Miami has a big case of the sniffles.
You could have simply come back with TLDR.
I specifically addressed your citation (April 2021 CDC publication of March 2021 report), in which you shared that "CDC claims 90% effectiveness at creating immunity. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7013e3.htm",
and the other 2 articles I didn't individually address since my response was already kinda lengthy, but were covered in:
"I'm sure you can find plenty of individual articles, leadership messaging and even studies, especially in the earlier days of Covid-19, that failed to remind everybody that viruses are unpredictable as they mutate, and also to be clear about the multiple objectives of vaccination."
If you or anyone finds poor messaging from later in the pandemic, mazel tov on your search, and shame on those communicators for not being clearer. But there has been more than enough daily information available about Covid-19 from credible sources, the entirety of which does adequately caution about the risks of variants, etc., along with basic biology education we all should have had by now, that nobody who takes personal responsibility for being well-informed should be so confused as you appear to be about what vaccines can and can't do.
Hope that helps.
Point remains... Covid-19 vaccines are indeed vaccines, and highly effective.
Carry on.
Not surprising at all. Omicron is highly infectious. Pretty well established and publicized by now. We're fortunate that full vaccination, especially with booster, does appear to still be highly effective against Omicron and all variants when it comes to lower severe outcome risk.
I dont care if you watch the whole video... MY response was the poster saying the SINCE THE BEGINING they were saying it was 90% effective (which is simply not TRUE so I gave you the moment where your president said otherwise:
Did Biden Say You Won't Get COVID if You're Vaccinated?
Biden overstated the efficacy of COVID-19 vaccinations during a July 2021 town hall.
www.snopes.com
I realize you have your mind made up about the vax and all things covid , and that is fine, your are entitled to your opinion, and i am not going to change your mind my point is there is lots of Info out their and people can do the research and either take the blue pill stay in the matrix or take red pill and follow neo out of the matrix
either way More and More people are waking up:
With all due respect your post does not say what you claim. There is no question that the authorities were aware and communicated that new variants of covid were possible that could evade the vaccine from the very beginning. I would say 30 percent of the informed public did not have to be told this because they are reasonably informed about vaccines in general. This is not some obscure science reserved for the super smart. Again debating this reduces your credibility on any subject you post on. This is basic stuff. By the way what is going on now is a variant. There is a difference between a variant and strain. I am going to move on because as they say you can lead a horse to water. Keep grabbing at those straws.
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the covid vaccine does a good job of keeping the most vulnerable people out of hospital. this is its biggest and unquestioned value by far.
when the delta wave began in florida in late june 84% of florida residents 65+ were fully vaxxed. that age group (in florida) has now grown to 91% fully vaxxed and essentially 100% that have received at least one dose.
florida's 65+ age group accounts for 63.2% of covid deaths since the delta surge began through december 30, 2021 (14,797 deaths). florida's 60-64 age group accounts for 2,401 deaths (10.2%) and florida's 50-59 age group accounts for 3,491 deaths (14.9%) during the same period.
the weekly covid deaths in florida have been relatively flat for the past month averaging 201 per week with a hair over 71% of those during that time being 65+.
these numbers are lower than prior to the vaccines being available where greater than 80% of covid deaths in florida were in the 65+ age group.
Did you really just post a Tim Pool video to try to prove anything at all about Covid-19? Holy crap. Take care man.I dont care if you watch the whole video... MY response was the poster saying the SINCE THE BEGINING they were saying it was 90% effective (which is simply not TRUE so I gave you the moment where your president said otherwise:
Did Biden Say You Won't Get COVID if You're Vaccinated?
Biden overstated the efficacy of COVID-19 vaccinations during a July 2021 town hall.
I realize you have your mind made up about the vax and all things covid , and that is fine, your are entitled to your opinion, and i am not going to change your mind my point is there is lots of Info out their and people can do the research and either take the blue pill stay in the matrix or take red pill and follow neo out of the matrix
either way More and More people are waking up:
The vaccinations currently being distributed in the United States are still very effective in preventing the disease. The flu vaccine is just over 50 percent effective. There is little doubt that if it were not for vaccine hesitancy we would now be in the process of putting this pandemic behind us at least in the short term. It is possible that because of world wide shortages of vaccines that new variant could reemerge that would decrease vaccine effectiveness. In my company we have had hundreds of outbreaks in the last month and none have been from vaccinated individuals. Hundreds versus none. Some have gotten very sick and required long term hospital stays. I imagine that will be a long term financial hardship in addition to the long term medical issues they will have to endure. At the very least, many are finding themselves out of paid time off and much of their leave will go unpaid. Yet still they have coworkers, without any legitimate reason continue to go unvaccinated. Many of them have irrational beliefs. The individual choice to go unvaccinated has hurt fellow Americans and businesses. That is an undeniable, absolute fact and I will not entertain any argument to the contrary.
I posted the above in August.
LOL no i post a video about a good Lib Whoppie Goldberg being shocked that she got covid
as i said I will never change your mind , which is ok .. just because you dont like Tim Pool or that is a Tim Pool video doesnt change that it is an Article from the "Daily Mail" but hey carry on in the Matrix
Yeah I'm not into the "what should we call it" argument. Doesn't really matter to me if it's technically considered a therapeutic or vaccine.
I do not disagree but it should be noted that if the "vaccine" is to mean 100 percent effective against catching a virus all of our vaccines would be misnamed.
Nah man, don't go there... please don't concede an important label that's been understood at least in the medical community for many decades not to guarantee any particular minimum level of efficacy against transmission of all diseases and variants.
It's utter insanity that anybody thinks that because they're personally upset or surprised that some particular vaccine (I'm pretty sure most) doesn't always stop all transmission, that ejects it from the vaccine category.
I was overly dismissive. Let me rephrase. I don't care what other people call it and I'm not interested in entering that discussion.
Yeah Man i agree with nolesince1961 we cant have people thinking that the Covid Vax IS NOT the same or have the same effectiveness:
AS:
mumps rubella measles vaccine
chickenpox vaccine
polio vaccine
Imagine if you only saw signs at CVS, Walgreens, Publix et al
"get your Covid shots here"
you know kinda like the signs up now and EVERY YEAR
"get your Flu shots here"
the whole get your Vax and you will be safe narrative would fall apart:
Did Biden Say You Won't Get COVID if You're Vaccinated?
Biden overstated the efficacy of COVID-19 vaccinations during a July 2021 town hall.
www.snopes.com
OH wait that is already starting to happen with the Cron
Whoopi Goldberg baffled over testing positive for COVID-19
Whoopi Goldberg is baffled over testing positive for COVID-19:
How bout that basketball teamYeah Man i agree with nolesince1961 we cant have people thinking that the Covid Vax IS NOT the same or have the same effectiveness:
AS:
mumps rubella measles vaccine
chickenpox vaccine
polio vaccine
Imagine if you only saw signs at CVS, Walgreens, Publix et al
"get your Covid shots here"
you know kinda like the signs up now and EVERY YEAR
"get your Flu shots here"
the whole get your Vax and you will be safe narrative would fall apart
OH wait that is already starting to happen with the Cron
Whoopi Goldberg baffled over testing positive for COVID-19
Whoopi Goldberg is baffled over testing positive for COVID-19:www.dailymail.co.uk
If you follow the data, Omicron is a game changer for two reasons:
1. It is much more infectious;
2. The immunity from the two main vaccinations in the US was found to be aproximately 30% for the Pfizer and 40% for the Moderna against Omicron infection and 70% against hospitalization. This is compared to 90% and over 95% for the Delta two weeks after the second shot. Over time these numbers decreased, but Omicron variant also pushed the numbers down.
Finally, boosters increase the protection back up to the original Delta numbers.
Miami is getting hit with Omicron with 1/3 not fully vaccinated and over 70% not boostered. So, with the infectiousness you are going to see a lot of cases real fast. But, this is good as it will burn itself out fast. Not good for those unvaccinated and older or sicker as a small percentage of them will be hospitalized.
It means a ton in terms of liberty and constitutional rights. A ton. State has almost zero interest in telling us to get a shot to protect ourselves. That’s a scary as hell slippery slope.
No doubt. Can’t live at extremes. Abs I’ll admit I’m not sure of where efficacy needs to be to support state interest. But I know the ever declining efficacy of these makes it hard for me to see the basis for a mandate at all.
I've been waiting to see the hospitalization numbers. The CDC numbers run two weeks in arrears (really one week but that week is incomplete). So the week that ended on January 1st (which will go up when it is reported again in 7 days) shows all rates of hospitalization going down for every age group sans 1. The one is the 0-4 age group. It went up 65% and will probably end up doubling after next weeks update. This group is unvaccinated. No indication that there is an uptick in death at this point. FYI, another point in favor of vaccination/booster and the decreasing hospitalizations. For those interested, current weekly hospitalization rate is 5.5 out of 100,000 in the 18-49 age group and 10.9 per 100K in 50-64 and 18.6 per 100k in 65+; all lowest rates since the first of August 2021.
“The number 1 goal of the COVID-19 vaccines is to prevent severe disease and death.”First, I'll admit "my bad" on one aspect of this... my expectations are probably too high.
When we're discussing a genuinely material topic (for example, a pandemic that has already killed over 830,000 of our fellow Americans, landed many more in hospitals, overtaxed our health care resources nationwide, cost us all billions of dollars, etc.), I expect that those engaging in the conversation in more than just a drive-by nature, and especially those who consider their input sufficiently well-informed to be insisting that something the entire medical community calls a vaccine actually is not,
a) care enough to actually read multiple relevant studies and check details and context around fun factoids they cite rather than merely cherry-picking headlines or excerpts from brief summaries or other incomplete source material they particularly like,
b) that they do not "misremember" or hyperbolize or otherwise fabricate what public leaders, subject matter experts and others have written or said on the matter in the past (as AllNoles did with his Booker, Warren and Biden revisions, and as plenty of folks seem to do with supposed "promises" around vaccine effectiveness),
c) that they are well informed enough about the subject matter to understand what things like vaccines (a drug category that has been around for many decades) do and do not entail,
d) that they can process concepts that aren't convenient but are still true and important (for example, the unpredictability of new variants of a disease, the changing nature of medical science, the fact that English is an ever-changing living language, etc.), and
e) that they have some self-awareness about the risks of relying upon any narrow echo-chamber for their "news" and education on the matter and about how little they actually know about topic X, Y or Z.
Apparently, especially on any message board nowadays, it really is about political tribalism, quick definitive emotion-driven takes, scoring perceived points and applause from the peanut gallery rather than truly sussing out where our assumptions and interpretations might be (often are) faulty.
But I'll try again anyway...
As I already asked AllNoles -- from where is he (and similar mask/vaccine mockers or minimizers) getting the idea that Covid-19 vaccines have been promised to be X% effective in stopping infection against any and all strains of Covid-19 AND also that something cannot qualify as a vaccine if it does not meet that particular minimum threshold against getting infected, no matter how successful it is in boosting/enhancing immune response such that severity of outcomes after getting infected are reduced?
You brushed over the second part of that question (weakly relying on the fact that the dictionary definition of vaccine has been updated to somehow prove that Covid-19 vaccines aren't vaccines -- laughable.)
To address the first part, you came back with this citation: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7013e3.htm
I will admit that if one were to rely solely upon that one citation from April 2021, which relied upon findings before the more-infectious Delta strain was first detected in the US in May of 2021, and which failed to properly caution about the uncertainty around future variants, they might come away with the misunderstanding that Covid-19 vaccines were equally reliable against transmission of all current and future variations of Covid-19.
I'm sure you can find plenty of individual articles, leadership messaging and even studies, especially in the earlier days of Covid-19, that failed to remind everybody that viruses are unpredictable as they mutate, and also to be clear about the multiple objectives of vaccination.
But if you're going to go so far as to suggest that Covid-19 vaccine isn't a vaccine, one would think you at least have enough basic understanding of diseases that you already understand the risks of variants, as well as understanding that there is no minimum protection against transmission that is required for something to qualify as a vaccine, while ignoring the other important vaccine functions.
Some good reading in that regard -- https://cen.acs.org/biological-chem...rpret-new-studies-coronavirus-variants/99/i32
One important excerpt - "We’re hearing a lot about infections in vaccinated individuals. Does this mean the vaccines aren’t working?
No. The number 1 goal of the COVID-19 vaccines is to prevent severe disease and death. By that measure, the shots are by and large still a success, Presti says. But the variants may force us to reset our expectations for what the vaccines can do. “Very few vaccines completely block infection,” Presti says. As variants evolve to be more infectious and partially evade our antibody responses, mild infections may become more common."
One thing that makes Covid-19 novel coronavirus so unique and unpredictable is that it has mutated more significantly than have other coronaviruses. (Feel free to read about that if interested.) Hopefully that stops with Omicron, but who knows at this point.
Beyond Omicron: what’s next for COVID’s viral evolution
The rapid spread of new variants offers clues to how SARS-CoV-2 is adapting and how the pandemic will play out over the next several months.
In this weird alternative reality world where true expertise is belittled, I really don't know if you'll consider Johns Hopkins a credible source, but just in case you do, here's some good reading about Covid variants, which includes:
"Being fully vaccinated for COVID-19 can protect you from the delta variant, but breakthrough infections sometimes occur.
All three of the F.D.A.-authorized COVID-19 vaccines can protect you from the delta variant. For Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, you need both doses for maximum protection. People should know that vaccines are very effective at preventing the most severe forms of COVID-19, but breakthrough infections can occur and caution is still warranted after becoming vaccinated.
While the authorized COVID-19 vaccines are not perfect, they are highly effective against serious coronavirus disease and reduce the risk of hospitalization and death.
Other vaccines available in other countries may not be as effective in protecting you from the delta variant and other mutations of the coronavirus.
Although vaccines afford very high protection, infection with the delta and other variants remain possible. Fortunately, vaccination, even among those who acquire infections, appears to prevent serious illness, hospitalization and death from COVID-19."
COVID Variants: What You Should Know
The new variants (originally called strains) raise questions: Are these coronaviruses more contagious? Will the vaccines still work? Are there different things you should do to keep safe?
A more current update of that JH article might also discuss the value of boosters -- and even explore if they are indeed merely boosters or if our most recent learnings must move "full vaccination" to 3 shots instead of 2, with refreshers annually or whatever....NOT some conspiracy or admission that vaccines aren't vaccines, merely that viruses mutate, some more than others and with greater infectiousness as well.
I'm assuming that you chose not to list any of the specific "pre-infection therapeutics" which you (and AllNoles) referred to in previous posts and instead said I should just Google it, since there aren't any such things that resemble Covid-19 vaccines in all the attributes that actually make a vaccine a vaccine.
If you're referring to Prep for HIV, you might need to do some Googling for yourself, specifically "Is Prep a vaccine?" (spoiler - it isn't, and when you read up on the reasons it is not, for example the need to take it on an ongoing daily basis, rather than the months-long or years-long protective benefits of different types of vaccines, that might help you understand that Covid-19 vaccine is indeed a vaccine, even if its efficacy in stopping infection -- merely one benefit -- varies by strain.)
If there are other drugs that qualify as "pre-infection therapeutics", but which actually do mimic the functions and benefits of Covid-19 vaccines, please list them.
Lastly, neither of you has bothered to address the curiosity that while all of the properly qualified groups I previously listed have always and continue to refer to the Covid-19 vaccines as "vaccines", it's only random message board posters who instead insist they are only "pre-therapeutics" or similarly contrived less-than-vaccine labels.
Why is that?
ok, that's it for today. Gotta' be productive.
Have a good one.
This is where you mix science and law. It may be a very laudable goal medically. It’s not a justifiable position constitutionally. That leaves public policy and wrecks personal liberty. It’s the ultimate Big Brother argument and it has no limits.
We are past the point that mandates would do any good in mitigation now, so a moot point. Looks like it will get struck down.
You can force inscription into the military, to send soldiers off to kill and be killed, on the whims of a president, but can't force people to take a vaccination to help stop a pandemic? Gotta love the USA........FYI I have been equivocating on this and think I come down on the side of no mandate.
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To repeat, I’m not a fan of mandates, but even less a fan of the unnecessary, misguided, often selfish refusal of so many to get vaccinated and to comply with other mitigation recommendations, regardless of the lack of guarantees and imperfect messaging.
I don’t think it will take too many of these types of analyses to make very tangible the state and federal interests in vaccination — IF it gets to that point (beyond the current Biden mandate case before the USSC after bouncing up the court chain)
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org...st-the-u-s-health-system-billions-of-dollars/
It remains incredibly frustrating that those most vocal against mandates also tend to be the ones whose words and action sabotage our collective ability to avoid the need for mandates in the first place… a self-fulfilling deadly prophesy. Plenty get vaxxed themselves yet continue to spread and applaud the Covid-mitigation-belittling messages that embolden the unvaxxed to stay unvaxxed. Sad.
We are better than this.
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