Charleston Church Shooting
- Thread starter West Duval Nole
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I'm gonna give Tommy the benefit of the doubt and don't think he means "anything confederate". We can't just bulldoze Gettysburg, blow up the Merrimack and Fort Sumter cause they reference the Confederacy.
Jesus, this nutjob pipsqueak kills innocent people and then the media finds a hot button topic unrelated to the original story, turns and runs with it, then hammers this flag issue down our throats.
Ok, I get taking the flag down over the capitol, but gottdamn this is getting ridiculous with the media controlling the conversation with random bullshit that they know will make people turn sides. Hell, just last week there were people arguing over Bruce Jenner's vagina and if a white women was really black!
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Ok, stick to 'brainstorming' in a vacuum then.
It's a pity how common your attitude is. As if access to MTV has somehow made you more brilliant than your predecessors.
"Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.” - Edmund Burke
They relied on history going back over 2,000 years in an effort to avoid the mistakes that had been made, but in your ignorance you hold yourself smarter than them.
Got it. Good to know where you're coming from.
Who is bringing up the Articles of Confederation?
If you want to understand the Constitution, why things were done, and even more often and at least as importantly why other things that could have been done were not done, then you read the Federalist Papers. It will broaden your demonstrably narrow understanding.
'Monetary support' is diddly without votes. People in polls marking the box.
Trump has more 'monetary support' available than all his opponents combined. It is a mistake to conflate that with votes.
I'm guessing that's a TV show? How is it relevant for those of us who don't watch prime time soaps?
Lol, oddly I don't own a confederate flag or a modern gun that shoots modern bullets. But I do have some confederate guns I've picked up over the years at estate sales. Ive got a Belgian Pinfire pistol and a rimfire carbine both allegedly used by Confederate soldiers.
If it is a monument memorializing all those who died on both sides, fair enough. If it is something specifically memorializing confederate soldiers/generals/leaders, it should go down; they took up arms against their country, that isn't something to celebrate.
I'm not talking about doing away with civil war landmarks like Gettysburg.
Poop, I think one thing you and some of the others are mistaking is the debate over the CBF et al is not new, and the passion of the detractors isn't either. I can recall this issue being debated on this board several times, and being just as heated as well.
And it's not like America hasn't shown that it takes a tragedy to get us off our butt before.
Phin, never seen Scandal, commercials look stupid TBH.
97, honestly, at this point, it feels like you and I might as well be speaking different languages; but that's ok, I'm choosing to move on, can't win everyone over.
I'm not talking about doing away with civil war landmarks like Gettysburg.
Poop, I think one thing you and some of the others are mistaking is the debate over the CBF et al is not new, and the passion of the detractors isn't either. I can recall this issue being debated on this board several times, and being just as heated as well.
And it's not like America hasn't shown that it takes a tragedy to get us off our butt before.
Phin, never seen Scandal, commercials look stupid TBH.
97, honestly, at this point, it feels like you and I might as well be speaking different languages; but that's ok, I'm choosing to move on, can't win everyone over.
But did you ever watch the Dukes of Hazard and like their car?
It's an extremely popular show where the black man with "real power" sat the white POTUS down and did a three-minute rant calling him a "boy" repeatedly. The religious right is played by a white female Bible thumping vice president that believes satan made her murder her gay husband, and she calls the black adopted son "brown child". The season one and two villain is an over southern accented gentlman that makes General Lee references, and the most powerful person in Washington DC is a black female that is absolutely smarter than anyone and everyone else falls at her feet.
Did I miss something?.
I get it dude, you're brilliant, but is this going to remain in this thread, or are you going to follow me around to every LR thread too making semantic snarky comments? Just want to be prepared....
And won.....for some reason you guys always forget that important part.....
I've been thinking about the memorial in my little Florida town (confederate only), and I would definitely keep it. It's similar to this one in Orlando that they all of a sudden want to take down:
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...nument-lake-eola-petition-20150624-story.html
I know Florida had some black Confederates, although I don't know of any in my family. But it wouldn't alter my opinion if there were none (likely). Some of the friends I grew up with in school had ancestors who fought in that war, and I wouldn't dream of making the slap in the face to them of asking them to take down the memorial. I think you always memorialize those who fought bravely in war, and there's nothing wrong with a memorial only honoring "your" side.
The flag obviously is a whole other matter, and the SC rebel flag needs to come down as an official govt symbol.
Confederate soldiers did not take up arms against their country. They took up arms against and invading force. Also the debate over th CBF is fairly new. Southern black people proudly flew the flag in my youth.
Spear, Rocky I appreciate us being able to disagree without being disagreeable.
Just noticed the avatar Kiting, classy.
Just noticed the avatar Kiting, classy.
That's nonsense. You can't invade your own country. Ft Sumter was didn't suddenly move into S.C.
Likewise. I am hopeful that if we all keep it friendly we will be permitted the occasional thread like this from time to time.
First let me say, I'm not defending the use of the Confederate Flag in any federal, state or local government sanctioned entity UNLESS it's on a Civil War Memorial and both flags are present. Without that caveat, it seems purposefully offensive and frankly wrongheaded to support just a singular flying of the flag as it can easily be interpreted as to supporting the offensive aspects of the confederacy even if the intent was only to support the "good" aspects of the Confederacy in its defense of home, southern identity, rebelliousness against a perceived oppressive government etc...
But to go all Isis and attempt to whitewash history is absolutely wrong. While most of the Confederate politicians generals had plenty of views that by modern day are not only wrong but highly offensive, the same is true of the Northern politicians and generals.
Guess who's who?
Purposeful Acts Freeing Slaves
Person A: Freed SOME slaves under his control in 1863 and finally freed all slaves under his control in the end of Nov 1864.
Person B: Freed some of his slaves in 1827 and freed all of the slaves under his control in early 1862.
Thoughts on black and white equality
Person A in 1860: "I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is physical difference between the two which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position."
Person B in 1856: "There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil. It is idle to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it is a greater evil to the white than to the colored race."
The importance of segregation and slavery
Person A in 1860: "Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life. Family life may also collapse and the increase of mixed breed bastards may some day challenge the supremacy of the white man."
Person B in 1865 after the end of the war: "So far from engaging in a war to perpetuate slavery, I am rejoiced that Slavery is abolished. I believe it will be greatly for the interest of the South. So fully am I satisfied of this that I would have cheerfully lost all that I have lost by the war, and have suffered all that I have suffered to have this object attained."
So have you guessed who they are? Person A is Abraham Lincoln. Person B is Robert E Lee.
So you're telling me we should tear down all lasting memories of Person B while maintaining Person A as some cherished emancipator of the black race?
Most of these racist nitwits probably don't have enough brain capacity to rally around a monument that has subtle hints of the Confederacy. They're more like kids - easily attracted to large garish symbols and flags.
As far as the flag, for me it’s been totally co-opted by the worst elements, and only belongs in private showings and memorials. As one war descendant said to me the other day, that might not have happened if when the Klan first started using it, Confederate Vets and their descendents had objected. But there was a lot of overlap between the Klan membership and the descendants. If I see one of those big ones on the back of a pickup in a deserted rural area, it’s cause for me to be a little nervous, as I associate it with several events of white on black racial violence in the segregated area I grew up in.
All that said I enjoy visiting Confederate memorials very much. Aside from being scenic parts of southern cities we like to visit, they are a real part of heritage and tradition. And blacks do have a heritage with the confederacy too, though it gets mostly ignored.
http://www.confederatelegion.com/Black_Confederate_Soldiers.html
"......one former slave who had been captured with his master spoke for them all. "I had as much right to fight for my native State as you had to fight for yours," he told a Union officer, "and a blame sight more right than your foreigners, what's got no homes.".The Confederate veterans did not forget. In 1913, 50 years after the bloody Battle of Gettysburg, thousands of surviving members of the rival armies met once more at the little Pennsylvania town, this time in friendship. The commission in charge of housing had provided accommodations for the black Union veterans. However, they were completely surprised when black Confederates showed up as well. The unexpected black Southerners were given straw pallets in the main tent of the compound. White veterans from Tennessee soon learned of their old comrades' plight. The white Confederates led the black veterans to their own camp, assigned them one of their tents, and saw to their every need. In peace, as in war, all men were equal."
Haven’t had a chance to listen to this vid, but it looked interesting
http://blackconfederates.blogspot.com/
Moreover, nearly all of these patriots which rebelled against the British are far worse than "mere" slaveholders. Most of them purposefully participated in the genocide of Native Americans in some way shape or form. Here are just a few quotes from only those who became presidents.
George Washington ordering the destruction of Native Villages-
"The immediate objectives are the total destruction and devastation of their settlements and the capture of as many prisoners of every age and sex as possible. It will be essential to ruin their crops in the ground and prevent their planting more.”
William Henry Harrison then a General on his campaign to exterminate natives-
"Is one of the fairest portions of the globe to remain in a state of nature, the haunt of a few wretched savages, when it seems destined by the Creator to give support to a large population and to be the seat of civilization?”
Thomas Jefferson in a diary contemplating his decision to order executions of natives-
"This unfortunate race, whom we had been taking so much pains to save and to civilize, have by their unexpected desertion and ferocious barbarities justified extermination and now await our decision on their fate.”
George Washington in his diary-
"“Indians and wolves are both beasts of prey, tho’ they differ in shape.”
Thomas Jefferson in orders to his generals-
“If ever we are constrained to lift the hatchet against any tribe, we will never lay it down till that tribe is exterminated, or driven beyond the Mississippi… in war, they will kill some of us; we shall destroy them all.”
Andrew Jackson in a speech
"“My original convictions upon this subject have been confirmed by the course of events for several years, and experience is every day adding to their strength. That those tribes cannot exist surrounded by our settlements and in continual contact with our citizens is certain. They have neither the intelligence, the industry, the moral habits, nor the desire of improvement which are essential to any favorable change in their condition. Established in the midst of another and a superior race, and without appreciating the causes of their inferiority or seeking to control them, they must necessarily yield to the force of circumstances and ere long disappear.”
And (heck) why limit it to just presidents who were alive and active during the revolutionary war. What about those closer to home.
Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt in a speech-
“I don’t go so far as to think that the only good Indians are dead Indians, but I believe nine out of ten are, and I shouldn’t like to inquire too closely into the case of the tenth.”
And Abraham Lincoln Again in an order to a general in Minnesota ordering the hanging of all 303 captured Native American and "half breeds" from a rebelling tribe, the largest ordered mass hanging in American history-
“Ordered that of the Indians and Half-breeds sentenced to be hanged by the military commission".
George Washington ordering the destruction of Native Villages-
"The immediate objectives are the total destruction and devastation of their settlements and the capture of as many prisoners of every age and sex as possible. It will be essential to ruin their crops in the ground and prevent their planting more.”
William Henry Harrison then a General on his campaign to exterminate natives-
"Is one of the fairest portions of the globe to remain in a state of nature, the haunt of a few wretched savages, when it seems destined by the Creator to give support to a large population and to be the seat of civilization?”
Thomas Jefferson in a diary contemplating his decision to order executions of natives-
"This unfortunate race, whom we had been taking so much pains to save and to civilize, have by their unexpected desertion and ferocious barbarities justified extermination and now await our decision on their fate.”
George Washington in his diary-
"“Indians and wolves are both beasts of prey, tho’ they differ in shape.”
Thomas Jefferson in orders to his generals-
“If ever we are constrained to lift the hatchet against any tribe, we will never lay it down till that tribe is exterminated, or driven beyond the Mississippi… in war, they will kill some of us; we shall destroy them all.”
Andrew Jackson in a speech
"“My original convictions upon this subject have been confirmed by the course of events for several years, and experience is every day adding to their strength. That those tribes cannot exist surrounded by our settlements and in continual contact with our citizens is certain. They have neither the intelligence, the industry, the moral habits, nor the desire of improvement which are essential to any favorable change in their condition. Established in the midst of another and a superior race, and without appreciating the causes of their inferiority or seeking to control them, they must necessarily yield to the force of circumstances and ere long disappear.”
And (heck) why limit it to just presidents who were alive and active during the revolutionary war. What about those closer to home.
Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt in a speech-
“I don’t go so far as to think that the only good Indians are dead Indians, but I believe nine out of ten are, and I shouldn’t like to inquire too closely into the case of the tenth.”
And Abraham Lincoln Again in an order to a general in Minnesota ordering the hanging of all 303 captured Native American and "half breeds" from a rebelling tribe, the largest ordered mass hanging in American history-
“Ordered that of the Indians and Half-breeds sentenced to be hanged by the military commission".
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I haven't been around enough lately or over the years to know who are the racists, let alone the nitwits.
But I suppose the latter usually shows itself sooner than the former......
I haven't been around enough lately or over the years to know who are the racists, let alone the nitwits.
But I suppose the latter usually shows itself sooner than the former......
You never came across a distant uncle/cousin or co-worker who was racist? Easily identified by mouthing off generalizations/epithets about race and then claiming first amendment when someone calls him out. Not all of them are physically violent
I haven't been around enough lately or over the years to know who are the racists, let alone the nitwits.
But I suppose the latter usually shows itself sooner than the former......
Considering Florida had a population of only 140,000 and scrambled together only 15,000 troops to fight in the Civil War, it would be an interesting case study regarding how many Floridians in support of these monuments have an actual connection to the Civil War. Frankly, it would be more appropriate for Floridian to put up a monument to salt and the blockade runner...because that is essentially all it contributed.
I can't find it, but I saw not too long ago on my trip to Gettysburg that as a percentage Florida contributed more soldiers than any other state. Yes there was 140,000 in the general population but only about 46,000 were white males. And of those white males how many were 15-40 and in fighting condition? 25k? Maybe, that's probably being generous as during that time due to illnesses there were more children than adults.
Plus Florida contributed a fair amount to the Union as well.
I'm multi-tasking, I probably misunderstood the comment I was responding to. I meant I hadn't followed this thread or this board enough to know which members might have displayed past racism or past nit-wity-ism. But I'm extremely slow to presume racism on someone's part without clear confirmation. White people rarely divulge their racist attitudes to me since I've moved into the adult world. And it would be the liberal 'kindhearted' kind of racism rather than a right wing kind. You know, the implicit assumption that black people need more help from the govt, or that they should be expected to misbehave or get in trouble. Some black people have revealed their racism to me, though it tends to be poor uneducated people, like if I strike up a conversation or friendship with the custodial staff. My family is very small. Very little racism in it at all (or at least they keep it to themselves).
Now When we were kids, of course racism was revealed. But even then, it gets let out more around "your own kind", and you hear less from the other race.
Not that anybody's really asking, and it might just be me who's intrigued. But this link says only 6 blacks were documented to have fought for Florida's confederate forces (3 are buried in the confederate cemetery in St Augustine). Of course if most black worked as cooks, musicians and drivers as it says, not combat, they might not have been well-documented in all states. For a black to get buried in the official cemetery might have taken doing something special during or after the war. Link says at least 18,000 blacks served in the confederacy. The Arkansas state pension system is the only one that tracked by race, and it lists 278 black confederates who received pensions after the war.
http://staugustine.com/stories/041803/new_dou1475225.shtml#.VYsbBctFBpg
What I was saying was that 15,000 white confederate soldiers out of at most a possible 25,000 military age white males was not something to scoff at.
As far as blacks in combat roles in the confederacy, Robert E Lee wanted them fairly early on and famously said in response to derogatory retorts that they were not capable as soldiers that he could train "anyone with arms and legs to be a soldier". But until very near the end of the war, there was a specific ban in place at the national level on black soldiers. If I'm remembering correctly, Louisiana at the start of the war had some free and mixed race units that were in place as militia but disallowed from combat roles despite their original training. So I doubt very strongly there were many COMBAT black soldiers in the confederacy. But I'm sure there were quite a few in no combat roles and as spies.
Meanwhile I believe there were at least two regiments (or if not regiments units) of blacks from Florida in the Union.
I was wrong about one thing. I thought that in addition to the two White Union Calvary regiments that there were two regiments of Florida former slaves. But I was wrong, while they fought mainly in Florida raiding and burning plantations on both coasts, one of the U.S. Colored Troop regiments in Florida was made up of slaves from DC, Maryland and Virginia (the 2nd US Colored Infantry) while the other was made up of slaves from Louisiana (the 99th US Colored Infantry). It doesn't look like there was any organised free black units from Florida.
But there were two smaller (really only half sized if that) official Union regiments from Florida, the First and Second Florida Calvary Regiments. What is interesting is that while most of Florida's organised troops fought in the Army of Northern Virginia or in the Army of Tennessee, back at home because there were a number of unionists formerly from the North as well as cities like Jacksonville, Key West and Pensacola where big portions remained in northern hands throughout the war, that Florida was basically the "Wild West". There were tons of little skirmishes between militias on both sides mainly fighting over cattle. One irregular Confederate unit even called itself the "cow Calvary" as they rode defense on the herds.
JJ Dickison was one of the more famous/successful irregular confederate leaders in Florida and is still the only person to have led a Calvary unit to seize a US Naval ship.
Here's an interesting little summation.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/opinionator/2013/12/19/floridas-cattle-wars/?referrer=
But there were two smaller (really only half sized if that) official Union regiments from Florida, the First and Second Florida Calvary Regiments. What is interesting is that while most of Florida's organised troops fought in the Army of Northern Virginia or in the Army of Tennessee, back at home because there were a number of unionists formerly from the North as well as cities like Jacksonville, Key West and Pensacola where big portions remained in northern hands throughout the war, that Florida was basically the "Wild West". There were tons of little skirmishes between militias on both sides mainly fighting over cattle. One irregular Confederate unit even called itself the "cow Calvary" as they rode defense on the herds.
JJ Dickison was one of the more famous/successful irregular confederate leaders in Florida and is still the only person to have led a Calvary unit to seize a US Naval ship.
Here's an interesting little summation.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/opinionator/2013/12/19/floridas-cattle-wars/?referrer=
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I know you probably find it amusing to tweak the "liberals" with the avatar but you do realize that many players and recruits visit this site right?
This is almost becoming comical. I just heard about a movement in Ghettysburg to get downtown merchants there to stop selling Confederate Civil War merchandise. Ghettysburg.
Good Lord. The War happened. Do we just whitewash it away from the perspective of southerners who had brave men fight and die? The North's fight was not exactly fully noble either. Lincoln was fighting to keep the Union intact. If he could have convinced the south to stay in the union and not freed a single slave he'd have done it. He wasn't saying that out of theatrics, he meant it. Without war he most likely would never have even freed the slaves in the north. He was not confrontational on that issue and legally he'd probably have left it as a states rights / property rights issue. Funny how until near the end he only "freed" the slaves he had no actual power to emancipate --those in the south-- and kept in bondage those he could have truly freed (those in Union territory).
Good Lord. The War happened. Do we just whitewash it away from the perspective of southerners who had brave men fight and die? The North's fight was not exactly fully noble either. Lincoln was fighting to keep the Union intact. If he could have convinced the south to stay in the union and not freed a single slave he'd have done it. He wasn't saying that out of theatrics, he meant it. Without war he most likely would never have even freed the slaves in the north. He was not confrontational on that issue and legally he'd probably have left it as a states rights / property rights issue. Funny how until near the end he only "freed" the slaves he had no actual power to emancipate --those in the south-- and kept in bondage those he could have truly freed (those in Union territory).
The federalist papers were propaganda. The journals from the Convention are far more enlightening for the reasoning aspect. I also agree that monetary support means nothing in the context of a Presidential election, without votes (although it's impossible to win a state-wide election without big $... maybe with the exception of Montana, but I don't know)... but in terms of what happens when the person is office, those with the monetary supply dictate what happens with the federal government.. making it a high-stakes, interest group-focused government. Of course, this fact is the product of the 17th Amendment more than anything (basically adding the Senate to the rest of the interest group-pandering branches of our gov't), but I digress.
I think my post will echo your sentiments to a degree. Slaves were freed because the vast majority of Southern States ratified the 13th Amendment. The Emancipation Proclamation was inoperative in all Union-occupied regions (e.g., Washington D.C.; New Orleans; etc...).
Slavery was an incidental issue, as opposed to the cause of the civil war. Slavery (more correctly, abolition) was a political tool used by the Republican party/whigs before them to expand power & obtain a majority in the electoral college & Senate. They already had the House. Once they obtained such a majority, the Supreme Court was theirs for the taking.
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