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Charleston Church Shooting

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Well if you can't prove that something definitely wouldn't have happened with one specific idea, we shouldn't do anything at all, there goes that.

The NRA is just a consequence of the main problem with pols, they're always running for reelection. Give the POTUS and Congressmen 8 years each, reelect a new POTUS every 8, half the congressman two years in, the other half 6 years in, boom, problem solved. When no one's running for re-election, no one will be worried about pissing off the NRA or any other uncompromising special interest group.
 
Gotta start somewhere, my man. We cannot just continue this path. You have ideas?
Therein lies the problem. There is not agreement in the resolution. Some may propose stop making churches and schools gun free zones by those legally allowed to carry it.

Those that want gun control laws say that's a stupid idea, that wouldn't work in fact it would cause the opposite problem. So it isn't about just trying or doing something. It is specifically try additional gun control laws. You wouldn't be in favor of the opposite and relaxing gun control. Making open carry legal everywhere that there isn't medical detectors or xray machines upon entry. You guys saying something needs to change I take it would not be in favor of making schools and churches no longer gun free zones or changing laws to allow open carry? I mean we need to try something right? Somehow I doubt that you would be in agreement to try the opposite of more gun control laws. Would it have prevented any of the previous tragedies? I doubt it and nor would additional gun control laws unless like I said before you go complete and total. No one but law enforcement can purchase, own or possess guns. Anyone caught breaking that law gets automatic life sentence and/or death penalty. Then use technology of biometrics or some other mechanism that only allows military and policeman to shoot the firearms made for them along with tracking devices so the exact location of any of the guns can be known. Then give every gun owner 3 months to turn in all firearms. Would that have prevented these tragedies? Maybe, maybe not.

Give the POTUS and Congressmen 8 years each, reelect a new POTUS every 8, half the congressman two years in, the other half 6 years in, boom, problem solved. When no one's running for re-election, no one will be worried about pissing off the NRA or any other uncompromising special interest group.

Now this I am in agreement with for the most part. Being a politician should not be a lifetime career with a lifetime pension. 2 terms max as either a Senator or House Rep. 2 terms max as president so the max 1 person could do is 4 terms if they were both president and senate and/or house rep. No bouncing between house and senate to extend. Then they can take their butts back to work like the people they are supposed to be representing. Also reduce their salaries to 100k (I could be convinced of a lower salary) plus travel expenses with limits that must be approved by independent board and receipts required for any expenses to be reimbursed.

The current chumps are on both sides of the aisle with way too much power because they have made being a politician a career. Those guys have all lost touch with the people they are meant to be representing and way too many lobbyists get to them.
 
Gotta start somewhere, my man. We cannot just continue this path. You have ideas?
This is what we need, a free, open brainstorming session on what possible solutions we can all come up with, no idea is a bad idea.

Ban all guns.

Issue a handgun to every citizen that votes.

Require all new guns to be made so they can't fire more than one round per minute.

Eliminate assault rifles.

Make mental health clinics as prevalent as McDonald's or Starbucks only cheaper.

Eliminate gun show loophole.

Increase penalties for deaths and/or crimes committed by someone using your legally purchased firearm. If you knew you could get 25 years because your 19 yo dropout found a way into your gun cabinet, you might do a better job of securing them.

That's all I came up with off the top, I'm sure we can come up with more. I don't want to hear about why one won't work, just tell me whatever pops into your head, remember there's no stupid idea.
 
Now this I am in agreement with for the most part. Being a politician should not be a lifetime career with a lifetime pension. 2 terms max as either a Senator or House Rep. 2 terms max as president so the max 1 person could do is 4 terms if they were both president and senate and/or house rep. No bouncing between house and senate to extend. Then they can take their butts back to work like the people they are supposed to be representing. Also reduce their salaries to 100k (I could be convinced of a lower salary) plus travel expenses with limits that must be approved by independent board and receipts required for any expenses to be reimbursed.

The current chumps are on both sides of the aisle with way too much power because they have made being a politician a career. Those guys have all lost touch with the people they are meant to be representing and way too many lobbyists get to them
Now why would you agree with that? It's completely counter to what the USC and FF had in mind? Not trying to be antagonistic, I appreciate your cosign. But my point is, so many people are so deep in this FF Box that we can't even really get started on talking about our problems, let alone come up with any solutions.

We need to start thinking outside the FF Box.
 
Well if you can't prove that something definitely wouldn't have happened with one specific idea, we shouldn't do anything at all, there goes that.

He didn't limit it to 'one specific idea', he asked you, "which one(s) of Obama's post-Sandy Hook gun control ideas would have prevented Charleston?"
If all the solutions offered combined wouldn't have prevented the tragedy in question, why are they offered as 'solutions'?
They're not actually 'solutions'. They're policies that particular advocates desire, and they try to piggyback them onto any tragedy they can.

The NRA is just a consequence of the main problem with pols, they're always running for reelection.

Many don't consider politicians beholden to the electorate to be a 'problem' in need of solving if we're going to maintain a representative government.

Give the POTUS and Congressmen 8 years each, reelect a new POTUS every 8, half the congressman two years in, the other half 6 years in, boom, problem solved.

Do you understand why terms of office differ in length?

When no one's running for re-election, no one will be worried about pissing off the NRA or any other uncompromising special interest group.

Inuring politicians from the public they are supposed to represent strikes me as a step backwards.

This is what we need, a free, open brainstorming session on what possible solutions we can all come up with, no idea is a bad idea.

'No idea is a bad idea' is the worst idea I've heard.
 
He didn't limit it to 'one specific idea', he asked you, "which one(s) of Obama's post-Sandy Hook gun control ideas would have prevented Charleston?"
If all the solutions offered combined wouldn't have prevented the tragedy in question, why are they offered as 'solutions'?
They're not actually 'solutions'. They're policies that particular advocates desire, and they try to piggyback them onto any tragedy they can

The point is, tragedies like these happen too often. Each one seems to have a fairly unique set of causes, but there are some consistent factors. And it isn't just about stopping/lessening massacres like Sandy Hook or Charleston, it's about gun violence as a whole.

But the opponents to any ideas or laws to attempt to lessen gun violence hold those to a completely different standard, in that if they won't completely stop all of it, then we shouldn't do anything.

Many don't consider politicians beholden to the electorate to be a 'problem' in need of solving if we're going to maintain a representative government.

You seriously think the NRA, and special interest groups are 'the electorate' that pols should be beholden to?

Do you understand why terms of office differ in length?

Enlighten me, or propose different time periods or an idea, or simply state why you think term limits are a bad idea; also see last point.

Inuring politicians from the public they are supposed to represent strikes me as a step backwards.

Do you honestly think that pols have the public in mind when they'e legislating? That's the point. Money controls pols, not votes, period. They may get elected because of their beliefs initially, but if they want to stay in office, they're going to have to take money from SIGs or that money is going to their opponent.

'No idea is a bad idea' is the worst idea I've heard.

This is the wooooooorst kind of person to deal with. Everyone's worked with this person. The one that can only come up with reasons not to do something and/or problems, but doesn't even attempt to come up with a solution.
 
Now why would you agree with that? It's completely counter to what the USC and FF had in mind? Not trying to be antagonistic, I appreciate your cosign. But my point is, so many people are so deep in this FF Box that we can't even really get started on talking about our problems, let alone come up with any solutions.

We need to start thinking outside the FF Box.

I think you misjudged me off a previous stance and pegged me into a FF box. I am very analytical and in this particular case in this day and age, it makes sense to me to limit the terms of all politicians.
 
We'll never be able to completely stop these incidents. Same with any sort of terrorism.

We'll never be able to get rid of the guns and we will always have people who are either bent on intentionally harming people or who are mentally ill. I'd also contend that the Internet, for all its positives, has given nutjobs a platform to validate their warped thoughts and views and feel connected to other nutjobs. But the Internet isn't going anywhere so we'll live with that too.

The whole confederate flag debate is a sideshow. Just remove it from any official usage or government endorsement. Individuals are free to buy and or fly whatever flag they want, and businesses can make their own decisions on whether or not to carry such products. Not sure why this is so hard.
 
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We'll never be able to completely stop these incidents. Same with any sort of terrorism.

We'll never be able to get rid of the guns and we will always have people who are either bent on intentionally harming people or who are mentally ill. I'd also contend that the Internet, for all its positives, has given nutjobs a platform to validate their warped thoughts and views and feel connected to other nutjobs. But the Internet isn't going anywhere so we'll live with that too.

The whole confederate flag debate is a sideshow. Just remove it from any official usage or government endorsement. Individuals are free to buy and or fly whatever flag they want, and businesses can make their own decisions on whether or not to carry such products. Not sure why this is so hard.
In this case the compromise had already been made years ago. The SC flag was on a memorial, not the statehouse. There is no legitimate reason to remove it from a memorial.
 
In this case the compromise had already been made years ago. The SC flag was on a memorial, not the statehouse. There is no legitimate reason to remove it from a memorial.

If it's a memorial erected and maintained by the government or on public property I'd take it down.
 
I never let my son wear the popular Dixie Outfitters merchandise because of the Confederate Flag.

However, I have no interest in the government stepping in with individual rights. I have no problem removing it from government.
 
Gotta start somewhere, my man. We cannot just continue this path. You have ideas?

So, you're saying gun control attempts spawned out of Sandy Hook wouldn't have made a difference in Charleston ... but hey, at least 'something' was done. I'm not very fond of the "throw the baby out with the bath water" approach.
 
All this slippery slope, baby with the bath water, "this wouldn't stop _____ event" doesn't change these shocking numbers. There is something wrong in America.

gun-deaths-us-other-countries-chart.jpg


firearm-OECD-UN-data3.0.jpg

gun2.gif
 
All this slippery slope, baby with the bath water, "this wouldn't stop _____ event" doesn't change these shocking numbers. There is something wrong in America.

gun-deaths-us-other-countries-chart.jpg


firearm-OECD-UN-data3.0.jpg

gun2.gif


It's a tough question and there's a lot in play here.

We have too many guns, but they're here to stay so the solution can't be "just get rid of the guns." I'm for more restrictions on gun ownership but if we think laws alone will stop gun violence we're being naive.

We have too many mentally ill people who cannot get help or are beyond help. Ideally these people would not have access to weapons, but are we going to
start stigmatizing people for seeking mental health assistance?

I do think our violent movies and video games are partly to blame, for certain people who might be predisposed to act on certain impulses.

Not an easy solution in sight.
 
Each one seems to have a fairly unique set of causes, but there are some consistent factors. And it isn't just about stopping/lessening massacres like Sandy Hook or Charleston, it's about gun violence as a whole.

A consistent factor of note to me is the 'fish in a barrel' aspect of the venues chosen.
For some reason to perpetuate these mass killings the assailants choose places that typically render the law abiding defenseless.

I think if you seek to reduce 'gun violence as a whole' you'd be better off not trying to do so in the context of preventing premeditated psychopaths without violent histories. That's kind of like chasing unicorns. Many more people will die driving to and from church this year than died in the cross hairs of that weirdo. Resources are limited, so focus on where good can be done.
The first step I'd take to reduce 'gun violence as a whole' is to end the War on Drugs.

But the opponents to any ideas or laws to attempt to lessen gun violence hold those to a completely different standard, in that if they won't completely stop all of it, then we shouldn't do anything.

Pointing out that proposed 'solutions' don't address the actual problem that gave rise to the 'solution' being offered is a good thing.

You seriously think the NRA, and special interest groups are 'the electorate' that pols should be beholden to

I seriously think that pols should be beholden to voters, and that is the reality. Isolating them from political repercussions for their actions doesn't strike me as a net positive for the republic.

Enlighten me, or propose different time periods or an idea, or simply state why you think term limits are a bad idea; also see last point.

I don't think term limits are necessarily on net a bad idea. I'm thankful for the 22nd amendment or I think we'd have been basically stuck with 'president-for-life' after FDR broke Washington's Cinncinatian example.
I do think someone should understand why the different branches and Houses of Congress have varying terms before tearing it asunder. I'm reminded of when people try to fix their computers by deleting files of which they don't know the purpose.
Anyone in favoring of amending the Constitution should actually trouble themselves to read to the Federalist Papers and gain thereby some insight into the discourse that guided decisions. The Constitution is a deliberate construction, not an accident.
Specifically in this instance I'd direct you to Federalist #57 (regarding the House of Reps, Madison says it better than I could:

"All these securities, however, would be found very insufficient without the restraint of frequent elections. Hence, in the fourth place, the House of Representatives is so constituted as to support in the members an habitual recollection of their dependence on the people. Before the sentiments impressed on their minds by the mode of their elevation can be effaced by the exercise of power, they will be compelled to anticipate the moment when their power is to cease, when their exercise of it is to be reviewed, and when they must descend to the level from which they were raised; there forever to remain unless a faithful discharge of their trust shall have established their title to a renewal of it."

Also, Federalist #62 gives a good run down on the trade offs of how the Senate is constituted on the term limit issue.

I think a better idea for Congressional representation in our republic would be to abolish the 17th amendment. It has empowered political parties and diminished the role and voice of sovereign states in our republic.

Do you honestly think that pols have the public in mind when they'e legislating? That's the point. Money controls pols, not votes, period.

Pols have voters in mind when they're casting votes. Not 'the public' - the voters. There is a distinction there that is important. Because unless you think our next president is Donald Trump you realize votes ultimately matter more to the politician than money. The guy with the NRA bumper sticker votes, and the pols know it.

This is the wooooooorst kind of person to deal with. Everyone's worked with this person. The one that can only come up with reasons not to do something and/or problems, but doesn't even attempt to come up with a solution.

The worst kind of person to deal with is the person who wastes your time 'brainstorming' terrible ideas that they don't (or can't) think through, but force you to waste your time demonstrating won't work even after implemented. Everyone's worked with this person. The one that can't see something won't work until you waste your time showing them and even then they act like a victory was achieved because, hey, at least we 'did something' about the problem, even though 'something' did nothing to solve the problem.
I'm INTJ, so I realize there are trade offs in life that can't be obviated even if we listened and acted every time some clown said, 'there oughta be a law...'
 
I agree that there are no easy solutions. But so far we've just thrown our hands in the air and moved on after each killing. Like they say admitting you have a problem is the first step - we need to all acknowledge that we have a gun problem here in the US.
 
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I agree that there are no easy solutions. But so far we've just thrown our hands in the air and moved on after each killing. Like they say admitting you have a problem is the first step - we need to all acknowledge that we have a gun problem here in the US.

Fully agree. We do have a huge gun problem and the 2nd Amendment absolutists are as obnoxious as any interest group out there.
 
The Raucous Caucus has returned. Glad you guys are politicizing this tragedy. Crazy kid murders 9 people and the whole country's attention is on a damn flag.

How many people keep getting murdered in Chicago? Let's see....3 and another 16 injured. Since Tuesday night. Where's the outrage?
 
The Raucous Caucus has returned. Glad you guys are politicizing this tragedy. Crazy kid murders 9 people and the whole country's attention is on a damn flag.

How many people keep getting murdered in Chicago? Let's see....3 and another 16 injured. Since Tuesday night. Where's the outrage?
The conversation changed to gun control!
 
The Raucous Caucus has returned. Glad you guys are politicizing this tragedy. Crazy kid murders 9 people and the whole country's attention is on a damn flag.

How many people keep getting murdered in Chicago? Let's see....3 and another 16 injured. Since Tuesday night. Where's the outrage?

Agree with this as well. As I said above, the confederate flag issue has nothing to do with the gun issue.
 
Not going to go through the effort to breakdown your post 97, obviously you and I have some fundamental differences.

Let me try and make this abundantly clear, I do not care what someone said 200+ years ago about anything we're facing as a nation in 2015. I'm smarter than Hamilton, Madison, Jay, etc, you are, nearly everyone on the planet is, simply due to having a relevant and current frame of reference. We can come up with solutions, tweaks, adjustments, etc without having to reference what a bunch of slave owning rapist drug abusers thought about something that 'kind' of but doesn't really have anything to do with what's going on right now.

I'll use your computer analogy, if I'm trying to troubleshoot my W7 PC why would I reference a Commodore 64 user's manual?

And I'm not talking about making money or having money when I reference money vs votes, I'm talking about monetary support. I believe we're at a point when the difference between winning and losing an election is essentially advertising, which costs money, which comes from special interests groups, who very often don't even have their group's best interest or genuine desires at heart, or don't even actually represent an actual voter block. Which brings me back to the NRA, there are several polls showing that a majority of NRA members support various gun control measures, but does the actual NRA support them? Never. And that's the problem. The NRA controls the checkbook, not its members.
 
The Raucous Caucus has returned. Glad you guys are politicizing this tragedy. Crazy kid murders 9 people and the whole country's attention is on a damn flag.

How many people keep getting murdered in Chicago? Let's see....3 and another 16 injured. Since Tuesday night. Where's the outrage?[/QUOTE]

I would suggest that the participants engagement in a discussion regarding gun violence and gun control is germane to this tragedy as well....
 
The Raucous Caucus has returned. Glad you guys are politicizing this tragedy. Crazy kid murders 9 people and the whole country's attention is on a damn flag.

How many people keep getting murdered in Chicago? Let's see....3 and another 16 injured. Since Tuesday night. Where's the outrage?

People always use the "politicizing tragedy" card when the changes are something they don't like. The fact is that sometimes tragedies are catalysts for changes that were long overdue - like this one. And while the bigger issue is certainly gun control, we can tackle that next. I'm sure that many of us would be more than happy if that actually happened.
 
Why does Vizike say the 21 year old is a kid, and is crazy? Why not racist man?

Why reference Chicago, of all the cities in America where gun violence is occurring, why Chicago?

But politicizing something is wrong... mkay.

You're not fooling me Vizike...
 
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People always use the "politicizing tragedy" card when the changes are something they don't like. The fact is that sometimes tragedies are catalysts for changes that were long overdue - like this one. And while the bigger issue is certainly gun control, we can tackle that next. I'm sure that many of us would be more than happy if that actually happened.

For the record, I do not own a gun or a confederate flag.
 
Why does Vizike say the 21 year old is a kid, and is crazy? Why not racist man?

Why reference Chicago, of all the cities in America where gun violence is occurring, why Chicago?

But politicizing something is wrong... mkay.

You're not fooling me Vizike...

I'm 41 so he is a kid to me. He most definitely was racist...but being racist does not cause you to murder and you're never going to end racism. You can't be right in the head to do what he did.

Why Chicago? Because I like that town and I want it to be safe in the future when I visit :)
 
I believe he was crazy, racist adult thug criminal mass-murderer. Not sure about a terrorist, but if we want to call him that I suppose we can.
 
The government shouldn't maintain memorials? Really?
Sorry, not clear. I meant we keep the memorials but should not fly Confederate flag on the grounds. Don't need to take down the memorials or sand the flags off the marble or anything like that.
 
All monuments, references, etc to anything confederate on govt buildings or property should be removed, period.

You're taking too far, IMO.

Say there's an obelisk in a town square with the names of Confederate soldiers who died in the war. I think a reasonable compromise is you leave the memorial but you don't fly the flag next to it.
 
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