Charleston Church Shooting

[West Duval Nole]

Maybe it's time we start re-evaluating at our willingness to 'allow' hate groups to do as they please under the guise of freedom of speech, association and privacy rights?

Your Japanese argument is a strawman and you know it. Not even remotely close to being comparable.

It's not that 'some people' find it offensive. It is an offensive symbol, period. I'm not talking about outlawing anything that 'some people' find offensive. That should be abundantly clear.

Certainly you understand this then opens the door to allowing someone to define what is considered hate and illegal and what is not. Who is it that gets to define this? Even if a majority agree which in the confederate flag most probably do agree as most would agree with a KKK march or demonstration or their right to even assemble and display or the Arian brotherhood displaying the Nazi swastika and people stomping. How bout the black panthers, Westboro Baptist Church, burning or disrespecting the bible or the Koran, etc etc.

And what if someone displaying the flag says they aren't wearing it to represent that blacks should be slaves? That they are merely wearing it to establish southern pride, or whatever reason. There most certainly isn't universal agreement despite whether I agree with you or not on what it means and the reason people display it. It certainly should not be illegal to display it on one's private property or even if they want to continue their ignorance if there reason is they believe blacks should be slaves. You, me, or the government most certainly be telling people what they should or should not believe, as it relates to those things.

 

[Fijimn]

Frankly, I believe that it is a testament to the freedoms we enjoy in this republic that the losers are allowed to continue to fly their battle flag. It akin to ultimate participation trophy/ribbon.


One observation that I have always had is that those the support the public display of the flag by the state government of a state that lost, is that those same people tend to be the first ones that opine that things like Black History Month or Hispanic Heritage Month is the source of divisiveness in the country. Always found that strange.

 

[tommynole3476]

Certainly you understand this then opens the door to allowing someone to define what is considered hate and illegal and what is not.

Not only do I understand that, it is exactly what I hope happens.

Honestly, I'm sick of having to consider what we think a bunch of slave owning rapists thought freedom meant over 200 years ago.

And what if someone displaying the flag says they aren't wearing it to represent that blacks should be slaves? That they are merely wearing it to establish southern pride, or whatever reason.

Ugh... that's the exact disingenuous argument I've already mentioned in this thread.

How exactly does a flag that was never adopted by any confederate state, or flown over any confederate capital, and only used as a battle flag by one state, represent southern pride? Explain that to me. Why not use any of the plethora of other confederate state and battle flags to celebrate your heritage and pride?

Congress passes laws all the time, they're debated, and often times elections hinge on how those running stand on those issues. And even then, their legality and constitutionality is challenged in the SCOTUS, and either upheld or overturned.

Stop trying to strawman this debate, even I don't believe you think the Confederate flag is on the same level as the Bible or the Koran.

 

[tommynole3476]

One observation that I have always had is that those the support the public display of the flag by the state government of a state that lost, is that those same people tend to be the first ones that opine that things like Black History Month or Hispanic Heritage Month is the source of divisiveness in the country. Always found that strange.

Do you follow me on twitter, because I tweeted this point, almost verbatim this morning, lol.

 

[Rhino_nole]

Didn't South Carolina put the flag up in 1961 or 1962 as a direct "suck it!" in response to the Civil Rights Movement?

 

[tommynole3476]

Didn't South Carolina put the flag up in 1961 or 1962 as a direct "suck it!" in response to the Civil Rights Movement?

Good article on the history, but short answer is yes.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/why-is-the-flag-still-there/396431/

It's also the flag Gov Wallace stood in front of in his speeches opposing desegregation (in addition to the alabama state flag of course).

 

[Fijimn]

Would it be ironic if research shows that the confederate flag does not fly in northern Virginia.

 

[West Duval Nole]

Not only do I understand that, it is exactly what I hope happens.

Honestly, I'm sick of having to consider what we think a bunch of slave owning rapists thought freedom meant over 200 years ago.


Ugh... that's the exact disingenuous argument I've already mentioned in this thread.

How exactly does a flag that was never adopted by any confederate state, or flown over any confederate capital, and only used as a battle flag by one state, represent southern pride? Explain that to me. Why not use any of the plethora of other confederate state and battle flags to celebrate your heritage and pride?

Congress passes laws all the time, they're debated, and often times elections hinge on how those running stand on those issues. And even then, their legality and constitutionality is challenged in the SCOTUS, and either upheld or overturned.

Stop trying to strawman this debate, even I don't believe you think the Confederate flag is on the same level as the Bible or the Koran.

It is a straw man and disingenuous because you say it is. I don't agree with the confederate flag nor would I fly it or where it or many many other things, yet it has nothing to do with whether I personally agree or disagree with it that should make something illegal again on private property which is the level you took it to. The debate on whether or not it should be displayed by government institutions is a separate argument.

The KKK and Arian brotherhood has the right to assemble and march, display and profess their racism and white superiority. I disagree with it and think it adds no value, but hey if they want to make themselves look like idiots have at it.

Same goes for the Black Panthers, Westboro Baptist Church and any other controversial group that by and large a majority of Americans and/or the world think are ignorant.

 

[tommynole3476]

I refer to your arguments as disingenuous, because I respect your intelligence more than you're respecting mine by comparing the KKK and CBF to Westboro, BPP, the Bible and Koran.

But I'll be more than happy to discontinue that respect whenever you'd like.

 

[West Duval Nole]

I refer to your arguments as disingenuous, because I respect your intelligence more than you're respecting mine by comparing the KKK and CBF to Westboro, BPP, the Bible and Koran.

But I'll be more than happy to discontinue that respect whenever you'd like.

I did not disrespect your intelligence at all. The parallel in the comparisons would be actually that I assume you also think the KKK, Westboro Baptist Church, Black Panther Party are groups you also disagree with much like myself and really don't think they have any place in society. And you, I and probably over 90% of other Americans agree, they don't belong.

And maybe here is where you and I may disagree. I think those groups no matter how moronic should be able to display or wear anything they want to on their own property. Whether that be an emblem of the KKK, the Nazi swastika or the confederate flag. Should it be displayed on a state's government property? No. But if someone owns a house or a car and wants to have that on there, it's theirs go ahead. Just like Someone could paint I hate all White people or all Asians or whatever and display it as they like on their own property.

 

[tommynole3476]

We disagree on that. But the KKK is still not comparable to Westboro or the BPP.

I refer you to a previous post:

Maybe it's time we start re-evaluating at our willingness to 'allow' hate groups to do as they please under the guise of freedom of speech, association and privacy rights?

Think about why you believe they have the rights you think they do. Because a group of guys who are literally dumber than every person in this country, and were far more immoral than most too, put it on a piece of paper a couple hundred years ago.

I continue to be baffled that we do this still. "I know the thought of protesting the funerals of military veterans because of the government's allowing of homosexuals to serve openly in the military would be completely foreign to them, but surely the FF had this scenario in mind when writing up the first?"

 

[West Duval Nole]

I look at it also a little differently. I actually prefer they wear or display it. This is a sign to me to be cautious when around the person and would not approach their house nor let my children go to their house, whether it be to trick or treat or ask their kids if they want to play or really any other reason. Much rather that be the case than them hiding it and keeping it in and then for it to come out after the fact. I actually think it is smarter to allow them to display their hateful ignorance to everyone rather than keeping it hidden and behind closed doors.

 

[tommynole3476]

Racism is learned, but even students who are taught the most ingrained lessons can lose that knowledge when it isn't reinforced, supported, and/or allowed by society.

I think when a kid learns from his parents/elders, and then goes outside and sees that flag flying freely, or marches being held in support of the KKK or confederacy, etc, it legitimizes and supports those lessons. But if that wasn't the case, they'll be more likely to realize what their parent/elder is teaching them is wrong.

I don't completely disagree with your thought though. There are times when I wish people were more overt about their prejudices, I'd almost respect them more.

 

[bigjkt405]

http://t.co/uHNpdQRiak

Nice little read on why it flies.... and the roots of it flying over the Capitol....

 

[YogiNole]

Seems like SC Gov Haley has called for the removal of the confederate flag from the Capitol

 

[KitingHigh]

Racism is learned, but even students who are taught the most ingrained lessons can lose that knowledge when it isn't reinforced, supported, and/or allowed by society.

I think when a kid learns from his parents/elders, and then goes outside and sees that flag flying freely, or marches being held in support of the KKK or confederacy, etc, it legitimizes and supports those lessons. But if that wasn't the case, they'll be more likely to realize what their parent/elder is teaching them is wrong.

I don't completely disagree with your thought though. There are times when I wish people were more overt about their prejudices, I'd almost respect them more.

You need to hate the American flag too then. The KKK flys it as well.

Honestly though this thread has just shown your ignorance and bigotry. I wish you were a Gator fan.

 

[LesClaypool]

Don't always agree w/tommy, but he's been more right than wrong in this thread.

It certainly shouldn't be illegal to fly the confederate flag, that's for sure. I strongly agree with the person who said, (paraphrased) "I'd rather see private citizens flying the confederate flag b/c it let's me know I should be cautious of that person, and steer clear of having anything to do with them...than to have them not fly it and me be none the wiser that I'm dealing with such a person."

 

[West Duval Nole]

You need to hate the American flag too then. The KKK flys it as well.

Honestly though this thread has just shown your ignorance and bigotry. I wish you were a Gator fan.

I probably disagree with Tommy more than I agree with him on these political subject matters, but that has nothing to do with being a fan of a team.

You think all Nole fans, players and students agree on politics? No way, There is a diverse group of political opinions from far far left to far far right with everything in between. No need to wish them to be a fan of another school as I am sure that school's fans also have fans that range the political spectrum and you would rather those fans be Nole fans just because they agree with your politics? Would you use the same criteria for players we recruit?

One should have absolutely nothing to do with the other. And BTW, I am not in complete agreement with Tommy on this thread.

 

[KitingHigh]

I probably disagree with Tommy more than I agree with him on these political subject matters, but that has nothing to do with being a fan of a team.

You think all Nole fans, players and students agree on politics? No way, There is a diverse group of political opinions from far far left to far far right with everything in between. No need to wish them to be a fan of another school as I am sure that school's fans also have fans that range the political spectrum and you would rather those fans be Nole fans just because they agree with your politics? Would you use the same criteria for players we recruit?

One should have absolutely nothing to do with the other. And BTW, I am not in complete agreement with Tommy on this thread.

Sometimes it's that extreme. I've never posted that to anyone here before and may never again.

 

[tommynole3476]

My first instinct is to respond with a clever quip, but it strikes me that part of the problem with our political discourse and what prevents progress on racial matters is the antagonism and vitriol spewed between the various sides. I'm certainly not innocent of this, not even in this thread, my smart mouth is something I'm half proud and ashamed of at times.

It seems you may misunderstand my reasoning on opposition to the Confederate Battle Flag, since you include that I should hate the American flag.

I believe the CFB represents a belief in the supremacy of the white race, and nothing else, period. This belief is supported by many of the facts already presented in this thread.

I believe the American Flag represents America (simple, I know).

The KKK's use of the American Flag, is a perversion of that representation. As they, and other white supremacist groups, feel that's what America should represent.

I consider myself to be a fairly open minded person, I've changed my position on some fairly major political issues over the course of my lifetime due to exposure of new information, research and/or sound reasoning.

I'd be more than willing to soften my stance, if given information showing that the CFB has been used more often than not (or even some), for non-white-supremacist, pro-segregation, pro-secession, pro-slavery purposes. Or that the confederacy and civil war wasn't ultimately about preserving slavery.

As for the bigotry accusation, you're absolutely right, I am intolerant of those who hold different opinions from me on certain issues; it would seem by your comments that you are as well. I doubt that any of us have not ended at least one relationship in some part due to that person's opinions about certain issues that differed from ours. Maybe if some of Dylann Roof's friends and family were less tolerant of his opinions none of this would have happened?

Ignorance is in the eye of the beholder as far as I'm concerned. I can live with a random stranger on a message board thinking I'm ignorant, if it makes you feel better to think that of me, which it must, then so be it.

 

[seminole97]

Classic tool of the offensive on the offended, you have to prove something does harm, they don't have to prove it does any good.

Imagine how much liberty is left when we're done 'proving' (how and to whom exactly?) what 'good' whatever we want to do does...

"When your response to everything that is wrong with the world is to say, ‘there ought to be a law,’ you are saying that you hold freedom very cheap." — Thomas Sowell

 

[Fear the Spear]

very true, the average prison has enough white supremacists to keep him safe.

BTW, that reminds me, anyone else see the Jeff Ross special recently? Jeff Ross Roasts Prisoners? Pretty dang good.

You're joking right? He's dead meat in the average South Carolina prison. Their won't be enough white supremacist to protect him. I predict within 5 to 10 years Roof will either be dead and or he'll be wearing a colostomy bag because he's going to get ripped a new asshole. The guys in there are going to pass him around and rape him like a 10 year old just for the fun of it. If you don't think it happens you're kidding yourselves. Lifers and guys in prison for hard crimes ABOSLUTELY love young tender white guys like him when they come in for long sentences.

Like Warden Norton said in Shawshank, "I'll cast you down with the sodomites & you'll think you've been f____ed by a train." Dylan Roof is going to lay there many nights thinking he just got f____ed a train.

 

[tommynole3476]

I'm more than willing to defer to your personal knowledge of the raping activities in SC prisons, especially since you seem to be so passionate about it.


Although, jokes aside, it occurred to me that since the board usually delves into torture pron when things like this happen, I thought that with the CBF going down, and momentum building to remove other confederate memorabilia from our society, isn't that a pretty terrible punishment for Roof? And wouldn't it be even worse if he had to spend the rest of his natural born life watching America become more racially diverse and tolerant? Maybe even setup a live feed in his cell showing every interracial marriage going on in the country?

 

[seminole97]

You're joking right? He's dead meat in the average South Carolina prison. Their won't be enough white supremacist to protect him. I predict within 5 to 10 years Roof will either be dead and or he'll be wearing a colostomy bag because he's going to get ripped a new asshole.

It is a sad state of affairs that even with the proscription of 'cruel and unusual' punishment it's basically common knowledge and accepted that the government runs rape camps.

 

[Fear the Spear]

I'm more than willing to defer to your personal knowledge of the raping activities in SC prisons, especially since you seem to be so passionate about it.


Although, jokes aside, it occurred to me that since the board usually delves into torture pron when things like this happen, I thought that with the CBF going down, and momentum building to remove other confederate memorabilia from our society, isn't that a pretty terrible punishment for Roof? And wouldn't it be even worse if he had to spend the rest of his natural born life watching America become more racially diverse and tolerant? Maybe even setup a live feed in his cell showing every interracial marriage going on in the country?

I'm more than willing to defer to your personal knowledge of the raping activities in SC prisons, especially since you seem to be so passionate about it.


Although, jokes aside, it occurred to me that since the board usually delves into torture pron when things like this happen, I thought that with the CBF going down, and momentum building to remove other confederate memorabilia from our society, isn't that a pretty terrible punishment for Roof? And wouldn't it be even worse if he had to spend the rest of his natural born life watching America become more racially diverse and tolerant? Maybe even setup a live feed in his cell showing every interracial marriage going on in the country?

I have uncle that is retired from CCI Columbia Correctional Institution. Yes, people that cross the line child murders, child molesters, shooting old women in church, raping old women, killing a mother & her children ect ect those people are going to get the worst of it in prison. Looking at Roof does anyone believes he stands a chance in prison without a gun? He may as well get ready for rectal punishment of the worst kind & when you've done something like he's done the guards are going to take their time protecting him.

 

[YogiNole]

rape him like a 10 year old

Dude, that's disturbing language

 

[Fear the Spear]

Dude, that's disturbing language

Refraining that language I meant he's going to be about as defenseless as a 10 year old when those guys get a hold of him. He made his own bed and should suffer.

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

It's the Pitbull of flags. Remove it from government property. Maybe fly it outside your house and see how it goes

Every time I see a pic of this kid I think of Private Pyle:

 

[ReliableOstrich]

It is a sad state of affairs that even with the proscription of 'cruel and unusual' punishment it's basically common knowledge and accepted that the government runs rape camps.

Agree totally. That a trip to prison quite often includes being raped does not make me a proud American - and that some treat it as something to laugh about is actually rather frightening.

As for the high level details of the situation this much is obvious:

• Roof is flat out a race-baiting terrorist set on destroying our American way of life.
• You can't pin the cause of this terrorist attack on just one thing but Americans (and I'm not talking about just the ones in DC or various State Houses) need to start examining a few things
  • The state racism and inequitable treatment of minorities (by employers, educators, police, the justice system, or simply a cashier at walmart)
    • Included (but not critical) in this is the use of symbols and names that pay tribute to our nation's darkest era (e.g. Calhoun, the CBF, Andrew Jackson) - these names and items should be wiped from every public structure and sign except the museums meant solemnly bare our shame with the goal of teaching us to never repeat those sins.
  • The state of gun control laws and do we as forward thinking Americans really think the second amendment as it was written was intended to be implemented in the way it is today?
  • The state of our mental healthcare system
  • The state of our public education system

Without real, unbiased, discussions about these things we'll continue to this violence in our schools, churches, theaters, and streets repeated.

I don't buy the "now is the time to mourn, not the time to debate" crap. No, if you want to make sure the 9 people in that church didn't die in vain, do something to make sure it doesn't happen again. Until then the blood is on all of our hands.

We've already let 12 movie goers in Colorado, 20 elementary school kids in Sandy Hook, and hundreds of others die for nothing. Meanwhile our politicians sit around scaring us about how Muslims or immigrants are coming to change our way of life, install sharia law, and other such nonsense. We seem to be doing a damn good job of damaging ourselves more than they might be able to.

Word.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

Frankly, when did people lose an interest in doing what's right vs doing what some liberal or conservative blogger tells you (or scares you) into thinking is right.

Like honestly, some of this stuff isn't rocket science. As sensitive, neighborly, caring Americans, so much of this seems pretty freaking obvious. Not every solution or problem must be assessed and solved in such an all-or-none, black-or-white manner.

 

[BelemNole]

It takes an Aussie to tell it like it is.

 

[YogiNole]

Walmart, eBay, Amazon to stop selling the confederate flag. Georgia considering removing it from the Sons of Confederate Veterans license plates.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

Walmart, eBay, Amazon to stop selling the confederate flag. Georgia considering removing it from the Sons of Confederate Veterans license plates.

It's nice that Amazon and others have decided not to sell it - they're certainly doing the right and ethical thing.

But shouldn't we be MUCH MUCH MUCH more concerned there is a market for the 29,000 CBF related products they were listing before they pulled them?

"Sales of three versions of the flag were up 1,670% to 2,305% over a period of 24 hours, according to Amazon data. One of those flags, priced at $1.80 plus shipping, is currently the ninth best-selling item in the Patio, Lawn & Garden department and the top-selling item among all outdoor flags and banners sold on Amazon."

Is the contents of this screenshot I just took not alarming/discouraging in the context of what is says about where our nation is in terms of race relations, or frankly just sensitivity towards how a neighbor or colleague might feel when driving past your house? The flag is a callous symptom of a much larger disease the American people are dealing with - let's talk about the disease, not the embarrassing genital scab that this flag symbolizes.

 

[tommynole3476]

Bacardi, if a sandy hook doesn't get the conversation started, I honestly don't know what it will take, and I kind of dont want to know what will either.

But we can't even HAVE the conversation before you know who flips out and acts like we're going to take away everyone's right to everything.

But I'm sure some famous person will send an unsolicited d!ck pic or something and we'll move on with our lives.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

Bacardi, if a sandy hook doesn't get the conversation started, I honestly don't know what it will take, and I kind of dont want to know what will either.

But we can't even HAVE the conversation before you know who flips out and acts like we're going to take away everyone's right to everything.

But I'm sure some famous person will send an unsolicited d!ck pic or something and we'll move on with our lives.

Sadly, you're probably right. I'm not sure what will wake people out of this malaise.

Statistically gun control maybe one of the few issues that unites a significant majority of voters, but Congress is too greedy to do anything about it.

53% of gun owners favored Obama's proposed laws to reduce gun violence (not to mention all of those who don't own guns) - and still what Americans wanted fell on deaf ears.

Such a sad state of affairs, but eventually something will get folks to continue the conversation for greater than one week -- and like you said, I'm really afraid to know what that something is.

 

[BelemNole]

I'm not sure what that would be if 20 dead preschoolers didn't do the trick. 40? 200? 1000?

 

[ReliableOstrich]

One thing that bothers me on the topic of gun control is that the media & DC keeps saying that the nation is divided on gun control. That's absolutely not true. Congress maybe divided but the electorate is statistically decidedly in favor of additional gun control.

Those greedy cowards (both parties) are pointing the finger at us as an excuse for their fetish like need to suckle at the NRA's teet - and we're too stupid or lazy to stand up for ourselves.

Egyptians organize a government overthrow using twitter and youtube, we can't even get practical legislation that most of us agree on passed using all of the tools available to us.

 

[Spearchucker87]

It's nice that Amazon and others have decided not to sell it - they're certainly doing the right and ethical thing.

But shouldn't we be MUCH MUCH MUCH more concerned there is a market for the 29,000 CBF related products they were listing before they pulled them?
The flag is a callous symptom of a much larger disease the American people are dealing with - let's talk about the disease, not the embarrassing genital scab that this flag symbolizes.

I think keeping it on State Houses is callous. It represents a failed rebellion that if successful would have led to prolonged subjugation for tens of thousands. And in S.Carolina it was put up specifically as a thumb in the eye to calls for integration.

But as Gov Haley takes great pains to explain in the first 1:45 of her speech, it has a more noble meaning for many:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...endous-political-upside/?tid=trending_strip_6
I don't see Ebay/Amazon removing these transactions as either right or ethical, just jumping on a bandwagon. There are plenty of civil war buffs and collectors that aren't racist or even simply insensitive, they just want a display item.

 

[SWFNole]

Sadly, you're probably right. I'm not sure what will wake people out of this malaise.

Statistically gun control maybe one of the few issues that unites a significant majority of voters, but Congress is too greedy to do anything about it.

53% of gun owners favored Obama's proposed laws to reduce gun violence (not to mention all of those who don't own guns) - and still what Americans wanted fell on deaf ears.

Such a sad state of affairs, but eventually something will get folks to continue the conversation for greater than one week -- and like you said, I'm really afraid to know what that something is.

I'm curious which one(s) of Obama's post-Sandy Hook gun control ideas would have prevented Charleston?

 

[seminole97]

One thing that bothers me on the topic of gun control is that the media & DC keeps saying that the nation is divided on gun control. That's absolutely not true. Congress maybe divided but the electorate is statistically decidedly in favor of additional gun control.

I wouldn't even be surprised if a majority were in favor of more gun regulations, but I caution conflating that with the electorate with regard to Congressional representation. Since we're still notionally a republic the congress keeps an eye on what congressional districts want. 90% of NYC dwellers in favor of gun control can be balanced out in congress by 60% of rural America opposing same.