Cosby => Harvey W et. al. => what's next?
- Thread starter Nolomite
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We're going to have to agree to disagree here. It's entirely possible to uphold the first three lines of my post that you quoted.
Equality is a buzz word people use to bully others into their views ("Are you for gender equality?" "Of course." "Well, then you're a feminist!"). I think you would be quite willing to discuss gender "equality" in terms of scenarios where women are deemed by society to be lagging behind men or otherwise mistreated/victimized by men.
I have my doubts that you would advocate 18 year old girls being required by law to register for the draft. Or advocating that women be forced to pay more alimony (men pay 97% of all alimony). Or advocating that women lose the children in divorce 50% of the time instead of 16% of the time. Or getting women into more dangerous occupations as men make up 92% of all workplace deaths. Or maybe we could discuss domestic violence rates which are highest among lesbian couples. I'm sure you want more women in STEM, but what about sanitation? What are you thoughts on the criminal sentencing gap where women get a 60% discount for the exact same crime? I'm all for equality. The problem is most people don't actually want equality when you get down to the knitty gritty of it. Your seeming lack of empathy toward things that don't negatively impact women is a bit dubious to me.
Your position, as well as Bacardi, is absolute. If it is easy to avoid, Ie 100 percent within the locus of control of the accused, there is effectively no such thing as a false accusation. There's no grey there. There's no room for social awkwardness or differences in emotional intelligence. There's no psychopathology in women. If it's the way you guys assert:
- men are the problem
- women are all rational and fair actors
- there is no such thing as a false accusation
- women have the correct perception of all social encounters they have with everyone.
In my opinion, this is inconsistent with humanity and not a scientifically sound position.
You appear to be caught up in something that isn't there. Bacardi and UCLA are reacting to comments that are dismissive of the idea that men are more predatory and focus on the exceptions to the rules while ignoring the posters who triggered the comments altogether. No one has ever said that some women aren't also predatory or that some accusations aren't false. But attitudes like SKS's and co's about the seriousness of the problem only exacerbate it. It's like they want to keep it in the dark like it always has been. Meanwhile all you seem concerned with is whether or not Bacardi is speaking in absolutes.
- men are the problem
- women are all rational and fair actors
- there is no such thing as a false accusation
- women have the correct perception of all social encounters they have with everyone.
In my opinion, this is inconsistent with humanity and not a scientifically sound position.
You appear to be caught up in something that isn't there. Bacardi and UCLA are reacting to comments that are dismissive of the idea that men are more predatory and focus on the exceptions to the rules while ignoring the posters who triggered the comments altogether. No one has ever said that some women aren't also predatory or that some accusations aren't false. But attitudes like SKS's and co's about the seriousness of the problem only exacerbate it. It's like they want to keep it in the dark like it always has been. Meanwhile all you seem concerned with is whether or not Bacardi is speaking in absolutes.
Preach on brother. People have no idea how hard it is being a guy. There are some days, I honestly can barely muster enough courage to get out of bed. Add to this cursed existence, I was also born white, and well, there are some moments I question if God really loves me. I really do.
But somehow I persist. One day at a time. One day at a time.
I don't ageee with keeping it in the dark. Though true, I don't think it's a big issue that women are predatory too. I also don't think we are necessarily talking about exceptions to the rule In reported harrassment or reported rapes. One must understand that those that report are a different population than does that don't, and that's likely especially the case in the context of lack of evidence. This is a problem and it's why we need to figure out a way for it to be safe to report while also maintaining due process. It's not an easy or straight forward problem in the slightest.
To me, there's a hypocrisy to the blame the victim argument that Bacardi/ucla have put forth and associated with that a false sense of control which belies the realty that you can't control others and that mental illness is highly prevalent, you've got several people with borderline personality disorder in every 100 or so people. That's a lot of distorted reality. But, they seem to want to proceed as if this is such a small piece of the pie as to be not worthy of consideration.
I can see a business person not understanding this. I don't really get ucla.
Anyway, I think:
- women are predominately the victims of sexual assault.
- culture of male/female relationships and around the reporting of said assaults, contributes to victimizing women.
- men's sexual commentary toward women is more threatening than women's toward men in general because men or more physically powerful.
- sexual harassment is a real problem.
- we need better and more open systems of ways to document sexual harassment claims. Primarily, because I think think that it likely rare a harrasser only does it to one person. And, if you get multiple complaints that it's easier to address the problem.
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I agree that it's not an easy problem. That's why talking about it is important and why those who seem to be trying to stifle that talk irritate me. I also agree with your bullet points.
Well, 80% of suicides are committed by men so obviously a lot of men do have difficulty getting out of bed. I'm glad you're not one of them, but it seems like a weird thing to joke about. I hope that your father, brother, or best friend never puts a shotgun in their mouths after a rough divorce or child custody battle.
So you think that I want to keep rape and sexual assault "in the dark"? Again I ask, what exactly is your motive here? Are you actually interested in discussing the problem of sexual assault or harassment or do you just want to crap on other guys in an attempt to put yourself above others for social brownie points? Your incessant accusatory posts make it seem like the latter.
I would push back a little on the bold, but I largely agree with you. Good post.
My motive here is to push back against guys that try to diminish this new movement by women to stand up to their attackers. I don't care that it makes people uncomfortable. In fact, it should.
I think all the jokes about "was I harassing when..." are an attempt to stop the conversation and should be called out for what they are.
So the "movement by women"? So you are more sympathetic to Weinstein's victims than Kevin Spacey's? I already know the answer to that question which is a big basis for my criticism of your position.
lol, I'm not sure which is more funny - that you know my answer or that that is the basis for your criticism in this thread.
Yeah, you're just looking out for all the poor guys abused by powerful assholes - that's why you've been making light of the #metoo movement.
I'm making fun of the #metoo movement because it's not a movement based on principles. The next time a 33 year old female teacher sleeps with a 12 year old male student I will wait with bated breath for feminists, yourself, and the me2 movement to demand the female teacher receive the strictest prison sentence possible. As of now, the woman in that scenario could actually legally receive child support if said encounter resulted in a pregnancy. Either we believe in principles or we don't.
Yes I know. I think you are even guilty of this as we all are. I haven't seen all the facts against Harvey but assume he is guilty. And sadly I probably fall into the majority who thinks for the most part when men are accused they are guilty and women accused are probably not. It might be pretty terrible thing to say and I probably shouldn't do that but I can admit to my faults.
Props to you. That's a start.
The "doubts" you've posed is either intentionally misleading or demonstrates a lack of understanding of the subject matter you chose.
Regardless, I'll assume the best of intentions and just say your doubts/assumptions are by and large entirely misplaced.
Equality is not a buzzword by the way, it's literally the premise of the Preamble of the Declaration of Independence. It is literally the ideal for which our founding fathers encouraged us to continuously strive.
If you aren't into that, so be it.
You're trying to turn something that is a core American ideal into a politicized buzzword.
What is your concern with victims of sexual harassment and assault coming forward and saying they were targeted. Many of the folks in the #metoo movement didn't even name the aggressor, yet you still laugh at the movement?
You can play what-about games and draw false equivalencies all you want - I don't think anyone here is confused by that. It's merely an attempt to avoid the subject at hand.
What a word salad filled with no actual logical content.
Point out a poster who doesn't believe that the women teachers deserve the same punishment. I'll wait.
Just because you idiots post "I wish she was MY teacher" after each one doesn't mean that anyone is arguing for a different judicial process. If you think differently, please provide a link. Otherwise, GTFO with that weak ass nonsense and your claim that THIS is the reason you won't support women standing up for themselves against their abusers.
Seems to be the theme of a few posters. Perhaps we can just change their screen name.
Thank you. Regarding my bolded points, sexual assault (rape) generally requires perception of physical ability to control/dominate someone. While women can do this depending on the circumstances it's simply easier for men to do this.
Regarding the threat issue of sexual comments, this is again a power dynamic issue. Women are now more often in roles where they have the power but not enough to offset men's role both in leadership structures ({eg tech) or out in what wild (eg walking down a dark street).
Btw. If you want to see a representation of the cultural problem we have with relationships between men and women, go to the main board and post a thread asking a question like. What lies have you told women to get in their pants?
Word of the day is "whataboutism", which along with drawing false equivalencies seem to be among the favorite tactics of those looking to derail a discussion.
If we are discussing "relationships", you may to go to women's dominate board (subreddit) and ask what lies have you told men to get dinner, money or marriage. Or, just watch some daytime TV.
For the record, I happen to believe that most of these men did exactly what they're being accused of. However, I do take issue with this notion that if you withhold judgment until more is known you are immediately and automatically seen as part of the problem. Today on CNN there was lots of overly positive reaction to members of a certain group finally(!) dropping the "If true, then..." language in condemning a certain individual. That's just dangerous.
We are all susceptible to leaping to conclusions and assigning blame on occasion without evidence but the "you're either with us or you're against us" narrative of this issue is troubling.
We are all susceptible to leaping to conclusions and assigning blame on occasion without evidence but the "you're either with us or you're against us" narrative of this issue is troubling.
-"it ends when men stop sexually harassing and assaulting women and when those who do are punished appropriately so more likely than not, there will be no end in sight."
-"As a society, we have to be better at raising young men to look at others as equals at not simply objects for sexual objectification and gratification"
-"Where does your unfounded fear of being falsely accused come in any of this? You are being incredibly paranoid." followed later by "The more some of you make light the more I'm left to wonder what you've done in the past."
-"But go ahead and act persecuted because women are starting to push back, you could probably get a Senate run out of it."
Those are all posts of yours in this thread and are pretty good examples of my problems with your movement. I know the fact that you're painting with a broad brush and making accusations is lost on you, but that doesn't mean it's lost on all of us. For the record, I'm fine with these women seeking justice if they were assaulted. I think that's a good thing.
I think what you're saying is true, but I think it's only half true. My issue with this "power dynamic" argument is that even when the power dynamic is reversed (female teacher, middle school boy) or not relevant (a situation in a crowded place where there is no reasonable fear of being raped) people do not have the same visceral response to the same actions when a male is on the receiving end. Thus, I can only conclude that there is something else at play beyond the "power dynamic".
I think that a real problem is just that there is a huge empathy gap between men and women. I think that's largely evolutionary (we're hardwired to protect women because they carry children and are thus more valuable to the future of the species) and that, sadly, nothing will ever really change that. As a society, we simply don't care about how things affect men. Even in this thread how many times has someone posted "man up" or some other similar line?
This guy's post couldn't be a better example: "Preach on brother. People have no idea how hard it is being a guy. There are some days, I honestly can barely muster enough courage to get out of bed. Add to this cursed existence, I was also born white, and well, there are some moments I question if God really loves me. I really do. But somehow I persist. One day at a time. One day at a time."
Again, we either have principles and believe in equality or we don't.
Well said!
When something major has been swept under the rug for so long, the natural reaction once the breaking point has been reached is to go "lynch mob". That is not right either, and more importantly is not sustainable in the long run.
A couple are mine, though I'm not sure what his point is...
I think there is a nice argument for emphasizing due process. Certainly, there are many examples of this not happening at places like Harvard, Duke, Occidental college and Auburn that have come to national attention over the past few years.
One must realize that the public shaming currently in play is a very powerful weapon, one that could easily be wielded for all sorts of nefarious purposes. And, the drama associated wth claims of this sort is pure fuel for personality disorders, as I previously stated.
There are major drawbacks that give me pause in this current climate. Is it better or worse than before? I don’t know. I would hope the current situation would make men think more carefully about their behavior and perhaps invoke a bit more theory of mind in how they treat women. That would be a big positive.
One must realize that the public shaming currently in play is a very powerful weapon, one that could easily be wielded for all sorts of nefarious purposes. And, the drama associated wth claims of this sort is pure fuel for personality disorders, as I previously stated.
There are major drawbacks that give me pause in this current climate. Is it better or worse than before? I don’t know. I would hope the current situation would make men think more carefully about their behavior and perhaps invoke a bit more theory of mind in how they treat women. That would be a big positive.
Totally agree with your point about due process at the criminal and university-disciplinary levels, but the current public outing of a-holes is neither and falls well within the victim's first amendment rights. Should they press charges due process certainly applies.
Now will some folks make false claims, yes. Does that mean we stifle or limit people from making these claims, no. We have a system for addressing these through slander and libel laws.
Also, related to the current set of allegations, the media has appeared to act with professionalism when determining when a story is sufficiently vetted, whether to reveal names, etc... I can't think of a well known false allegation since the onset of #metoo -- that'll eventually change, but like so many other things in life, our freedoms cannot be limited just because a few folks use them improperly.
And I totally agree that due to the wave of folks coming forward, everyone ought to think more carefully about their behavior, and that, as you said, is a big positive.
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