@BelemNole
It would be ironic if his friend adds him to the list of multiple men who had apparently tried to help her, of harassing her.
Cosby => Harvey W et. al. => what's next?
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@BelemNole
It would be ironic if his friend adds him to the list of multiple men who had apparently tried to help her, of harassing her.
@BelemNole
Now, I agree that one can do things to decrease the likelihood of an accusation. As an absolute rule, aside from a handshake I do not touch people at work. I do not make sexual comments or comments about appearance of anyone. I agree that one shouldn't put pics of women in bathing suits in your professional environment. I have a pic of my wife, my kids and my dog.
However, there is only so much under your locus of control. And these two posts, to me, suggest a serious fundamental attribution error.
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I think he's responding to this hysteria that 1) you can't know what is wrong to do and 2) any accusation will destroy you. Both those are clearly false but are rampant in these threads. Even now the likelihood is that real abusers will go unpunished more often than innocent people will get wrongly ruined.
One thing we have not had in this discussion is anything about the role of "venue" or "circumstance" - due to the Hollywood/Washington nature of all the #MeToo allegations, our discourse has focused on behavior in the workplace.
For example: my buddy and I used to frequent one bar on Friday evenings, a place in a busy area with good live music and dancing. Long story short, one night we meet a pair of girls, one asks me to dance, and within the first 30 seconds she runs her hand over my junk in a very overt fashion. That's never happened before or since with an almost-stranger.
At no time was I tempted to return the favor, nor did I mention it (I simply smiled at her).
Clearly, different social norms apply at Panama Joe's in Belmont Shore than they did in my office. But that's not something I'd have ever done to any of the ladies I danced with there.
For example: my buddy and I used to frequent one bar on Friday evenings, a place in a busy area with good live music and dancing. Long story short, one night we meet a pair of girls, one asks me to dance, and within the first 30 seconds she runs her hand over my junk in a very overt fashion. That's never happened before or since with an almost-stranger.
At no time was I tempted to return the favor, nor did I mention it (I simply smiled at her).
Clearly, different social norms apply at Panama Joe's in Belmont Shore than they did in my office. But that's not something I'd have ever done to any of the ladies I danced with there.
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/rebel-wilson-claims-male-star-171227402.html
Rebel Wilson, in my opinion, has a proper perspective and a defensible methodology for dealing with this stuff:
“A male star, in a position of power asked me to go into a room with him and then asked me repeatedly to stick my finger up his a–. All whilst his male ‘friends’ tried to film the incident on their iPhones and laughed. I repeatedly said no and eventually got out of the room,” she continued.
“I called my agent immediately and my lawyer made a complaint with the studio — basically to protect myself in the event something similar ever occurred I’d be able to walk out of the job and not obliged to return,” she added.
Wilson also alleged that following the incident, she was “threatened by one of the star’s representatives to be nice and support the male star.”
“I refused,” Wilson continued. “The whole thing was disgusting. I’ve told hundreds of people in the industry the story in more graphic detail basically to warn them off this individual.”
Her career is as vulnerable as anyone's - she certainly isn't some industry juggernaut. Clearly she prizes her self-respect enough to stand up for herself.
Rebel Wilson, in my opinion, has a proper perspective and a defensible methodology for dealing with this stuff:
“A male star, in a position of power asked me to go into a room with him and then asked me repeatedly to stick my finger up his a–. All whilst his male ‘friends’ tried to film the incident on their iPhones and laughed. I repeatedly said no and eventually got out of the room,” she continued.
“I called my agent immediately and my lawyer made a complaint with the studio — basically to protect myself in the event something similar ever occurred I’d be able to walk out of the job and not obliged to return,” she added.
Wilson also alleged that following the incident, she was “threatened by one of the star’s representatives to be nice and support the male star.”
“I refused,” Wilson continued. “The whole thing was disgusting. I’ve told hundreds of people in the industry the story in more graphic detail basically to warn them off this individual.”
Her career is as vulnerable as anyone's - she certainly isn't some industry juggernaut. Clearly she prizes her self-respect enough to stand up for herself.
You were sexually assaulted, my friend. That girl should be fired from her job and charged with a crime.
Us men must ban together and speak out against these predacious women. I once took a woman out to a nice restaurant and paid for everything. Later I learned that she didn't have any interest in me. Clearly fraud. I, too, have had a woman grab my junk without asking for permission. They're monsters.
#metoo
The more some of you make light the more I'm left to wonder what you've done in the past.
Your sanctimoniousness is annoying. Everyone knows that rape is bad. Women behave really poorly too. You probably think that you're inability to acknowledge that is admirable and gentlemanly, but in reality it's just sexist.
That's nothing but a deflection and false equivalence -- my comment is related to the quoted post and your prior post.
It's basically a "both sides..." type attempt to be dishonest or obscure the nature, scope, impact, and frequency of these incidents
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/gal-gadot-reportedly-leave-wonder-160235200.html
Gal Gadot Will Reportedly Leave the Wonder Woman Universe Unless Brett Ratner Is Fired
In the midst of multiple women coming forward to accuse director and producer Brett Ratner of sexual harassment, Gal Gadot has offered an ultimatum to Warner Bros. Pictures: It’s either me or Ratner. Per a report in Page Six, Gadot is threatening to walk away from portraying Wonder Woman in the DC Comics universe unless Ratner’s relationship with the franchise is completely severed.
Gal knows how to make a proper protest - take action before being victimized, and go straight for the wallet.
What sucks most about the Brett Ratner mess is that his older brother is such a nice guy, and extremely respectful to everyone, especially women
Gal Gadot Will Reportedly Leave the Wonder Woman Universe Unless Brett Ratner Is Fired
In the midst of multiple women coming forward to accuse director and producer Brett Ratner of sexual harassment, Gal Gadot has offered an ultimatum to Warner Bros. Pictures: It’s either me or Ratner. Per a report in Page Six, Gadot is threatening to walk away from portraying Wonder Woman in the DC Comics universe unless Ratner’s relationship with the franchise is completely severed.
Gal knows how to make a proper protest - take action before being victimized, and go straight for the wallet.
What sucks most about the Brett Ratner mess is that his older brother is such a nice guy, and extremely respectful to everyone, especially women
Again with the false equivalency. Just because some women act poorly does not mean that the scope and scale of the problem is anywhere close to being the same. But go ahead and act persecuted because women are starting to push back, you could probably get a Senate run out of it.
Again with the accusatory tone. Rape is really bad. I don't know whose mind you think you're blowing.
Rape is really bad. As is sexual harassment, sexual misconduct, misogyny, and bro culture, in general.
I spend all day, everyday in a private office alone with people, mostly women, and we are often talking about very sensitive topics. It’s mind numbingly easy to avoid ever being accused of harassment or otherwise inappropriate behavior.
I really like The Rock test for avoiding impropriety: never say anything to a coworker that you wouldn’t say to The Rock.
So sexual attraction is now the line that cannot be crossed? If I look at a woman, think she’s hot, think to myself, “man, it would be nice to hook up” - that’s now sexual misconduct?
Mind numbingly easy to avoid being accused of harassment from non axis 2; agree.
A lot of virtue signaling going on in this thread.
Rape = bad
Sexual harassment = bad
Objectifying women = bad
"Bro culture" in the office = bad (elsewhere too, probably, but you know, diversity)
Misogyny = bad
Misanthropy = bad
Office bullying regardless of gender = bad
Quid pro quo = bad
Sexual misconduct = bad
Anyone disagree? I certainly and emphatically do not.
Rather, I agree with Dershowitz' argument regarding due process. I wonder if this is what MCCarthyism looked like in terms of mentality? I wasn't alive then.
I think there is a legitimate and non emotional space in which to discuss how to encourage those who feel harassed or are raped to come forward.
Your position, as well as Bacardi, is absolute. If it is easy to avoid, Ie 100 percent within the locus of control of the accused, there is effectively no such thing as a false accusation. There's no grey there. There's no room for social awkwardness or differences in emotional intelligence. There's no psychopathology in women. If it's the way you guys assert:
- men are the problem
- women are all rational and fair actors
- there is no such thing as a false accusation
- women have the correct perception of all social encounters they have with everyone.
In my opinion, this is inconsistent with humanity and not a scientifically sound position.
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I really find the absolutes from several people really interesting. I wonder how much of it has to do with region of the country some people live in? We are all in agreement that rape, sexual harassment etc. are bad and should be handled appropriately. However the absolutes by some are a little scary.
I worked at my previous job for 10 years. I've worked at my current job for about 2 years. I can honestly say that in those 12 years I have never witnessed sexual harassment against a woman. To be fair, we only had about 18-20 employees (half male, half female) at my previous job so not a big sample size. At my current job I can think of 2 instances that I would consider "questionable" ie. not harassment, but not exactly something I would say or do at work. Both of those incidents were female(s) saying or doing things to males. That's why I'm a little skeptical about the motivation here. Is the motivation to genuinely stamp out harassment and sexual misconduct or is this just an excuse to take the piss out of men?
Here's a scary story.
When I was in graduate school, one of my classmates clearly had a problem. She watched a family therapy session. The daughter, a 4 year old girl, ran up and jumped into her father's arms and gave him a big hug. The graduate student's immediate conclusion.... sexual abuse. Fortunately she was kicked out of our program. Unfortunately, I believe she got a degree later from a professional school.
It's not like we don't have precedent for the consequences of this sort of mentaility. Years and years of research from Elisabeth Loftfus and her colleagues are rather enlightening.
As far as locus of control and emotional inteligence, her graduate school campaign at our program ended in a lawsuit. I recognized she was nuts very early and didn't interact with her except in very careful and preferably perfunctory ways. As a result, I didn't have to be deposed. Most of my fellow students and professors were. She claimed we should have recognized she had bipolar disorder and helped her get through the program. I recognized a different disorder.
When I was in graduate school, one of my classmates clearly had a problem. She watched a family therapy session. The daughter, a 4 year old girl, ran up and jumped into her father's arms and gave him a big hug. The graduate student's immediate conclusion.... sexual abuse. Fortunately she was kicked out of our program. Unfortunately, I believe she got a degree later from a professional school.
It's not like we don't have precedent for the consequences of this sort of mentaility. Years and years of research from Elisabeth Loftfus and her colleagues are rather enlightening.
As far as locus of control and emotional inteligence, her graduate school campaign at our program ended in a lawsuit. I recognized she was nuts very early and didn't interact with her except in very careful and preferably perfunctory ways. As a result, I didn't have to be deposed. Most of my fellow students and professors were. She claimed we should have recognized she had bipolar disorder and helped her get through the program. I recognized a different disorder.
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Consider this:
My wife has not been sexually harassed at work. She is careful to dress professionally, not wear perfume, and avoid doing anything sexually provocative.
I have a friend in the va system, who is a psychologist. She does the same thing. She wears her hair short. She wears business professional clothing. She is well endowed but covers up carefully. She has not been sexually harassed in the work environment.
Conclusion: It's easy to avoid being sexually harassed.
No one agrees with this right? Because it is not true. We do not control the actions of others. To assert otherwise is blaming the victim.
My wife has not been sexually harassed at work. She is careful to dress professionally, not wear perfume, and avoid doing anything sexually provocative.
I have a friend in the va system, who is a psychologist. She does the same thing. She wears her hair short. She wears business professional clothing. She is well endowed but covers up carefully. She has not been sexually harassed in the work environment.
Conclusion: It's easy to avoid being sexually harassed.
No one agrees with this right? Because it is not true. We do not control the actions of others. To assert otherwise is blaming the victim.
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no where did I speak in such absolute terms. In fact I already specifically addressed this earlier in this thread.
I welcome you to go back and re-read the thread and revise this post once you're done.
I did. You spoke inconsistently.
You cited your own experience and concluded that your actions resulted in no accusations (locus of control). You emphatically stated that it is easy to avoid an accusation.
You also said an accusation means nothing to you but it should be investigated. Relating back to your sense of control, you indicated confidence that if someone accused you of something, an investigation would find no culpability and your reputation would be intact (even though most of these situations lack evidence).
Your posts do not hang together. They do not describe a logically consistent position. At the beginning of this page, I quoted the posts I am responding to from you. Ucla's position is equally clear.
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I definitely think region and occupational field has a lot to do with it. It doesn't surprise me at all that this stuff is more rampant in Hollywood and high level politics. The entertainment industry is chock-full of people with severe mental illness. The type of people that go into that industry clearly have unhealthy views regarding fame, money, and power.
Not sure where you read this or it's just based on gut, but it is is false.
The fast food industry is among the highest in occurrences of sexual harassment and assault (40% of women in fast food have reported experiencing harassment). A combination of low income workers who has few other options and bosses with relative impunity in managing staffing and complaints. The restaurant industry as a whole is responsible for 37% of sexual harassment claims.
Let's also not forget that it's relatively common in the tech industry as well.
To me, this has the best kernal of a reasonable position concerning the current rhetoric space.
- sociocultural history of men dominance
- women as property
- women's right to vote relatively recently
- women as homemaker, teacher, secretaries, and the like. Basically perceptively subservient roles.
- women as sex objects
- history of victim blaming for rape
- glass ceiling
- personality attributes and perceptions of women in the workplace being unfair.
- existence of "bro culture"
- women as conquests
- history of social exclusion
= we need a major cultural shift in how men and women relate to each other. By loudly sounding the siren, we call substantial attention to continued existing inequities and hopefully enact a more universal change for the better in terms of how men and women relate to each other.
There is a logic to this in terms of ignoring due process and validity of claims for the sake of mesSage.
What about all of that doesn't 'hang together'.
I should have reported what I saw.
I am not scared that a false allegation could take me down - nor do I find that to be a reasonable fear.
I do think allegations should be investigated, privately, before any termination occurs.
None of these are inconsistent or mutually exclusive.
There are policies that companies need to implement to a) enable/encourage targets to step forward b) privately investigate the allegations, and c) protect the alleged victims during the course of the investigation.
I also remain puzzled by all the guys in this thread who continue to play the "both sides" card, an utter false equivalency, which at least on the surface seems to suggest either a broader insecurity about women being treated equally or uncertainty of the propriety of their own actions at some point.
Yeah the restaurant industry is really bad. I have a buddy that works in the restaurant biz and the number of employees with a criminal record will blow your mind.
Yup, and just think, 70% of those who experience sexual harassment never talk to a supervisor or manager about it (per US EEOC)
Both research and anecdotal evidence suggest that harassment is particularly pervasive in low-wage occupations such as restaurants and retail, industries like farming in which workers are isolated, and male-dominated fields like construction. The EEOC’s report noted that significant power disparities in a workplace can be a risk factor for harassment; that applies particularly to low-status workers and gendered workplaces (for example, where support staff are mostly women and supervisors or executives are men).
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Not sure he posts here - if he did surely he'd realize our need for new coaches and send someone other than the sleeveless wonder to make that happen.
I've explained how it doesn't hang together in detail.
Regarding false equivalency, I'd have to ask false equivalency of what and in what context? There isn't a both sides here. There's many sides.
If we're going to take a title ix type perspective and adopt a university tribunal-like assumption of veracity of all claims, then it seems natural for people to say, "Hey, wait a minute." Casting aspersions of poor behavior at the heart of such reactions smacks of, "Well, maybe you're a communist too."
I'll add that, in the past here and on other Internet forums, I've been appalled at the kinds of behavior that people will fess up to as if these are normal things including how people view sex and relationships, along with other unethical and criminal behaviors. We do have cultural problems. People do behave poorly and we should strive to do better as a society.
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Not sure he posts here - if he did surely he'd realize our need for new coaches and send someone other than the sleeveless wonder to make that happen.
Judging from your posts, I don't believe that you have any interest in women being "treated equally". Equality is a two way street.
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