I miss being young and knowing everything.
Cosby => Harvey W et. al. => what's next?
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I miss being young and knowing everything.
Where does your unfounded fear of being falsely accused come in any of this? You are being incredibly paranoid.
Proof can come in the form of screenshots, texts, corroborating reports, recordings, witnesses, etc...
Another one bites the dust. Louis CK admits allegations about sexual misconduct are true. Netflix has pulled his future projects.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...bar&tid=a_breakingnews&utm_term=.654b39b6ffa2
Worth the read...statement from Louis CK...
I want to address the stories told to the New York Times by five women named Abby, Rebecca, Dana, Julia who felt able to name themselves and one who did not.
These stories are true. At the time, I said to myself that what I did was okay because I never showed a woman my dick without asking first, which is also true. But what I learned later in life, too late, is that when you have power over another person, asking them to look at your dick isn’t a question. It’s a predicament for them. The power I had over these women is that they admired me. And I wielded that power irresponsibly.
I have been remorseful of my actions. And I’ve tried to learn from them. And run from them. Now I’m aware of the extent of the impact of my actions. I learned yesterday the extent to which I left these women who admired me feeling badly about themselves and cautious around other men who would never have put them in that position.
I also took advantage of the fact that I was widely admired in my and their community, which disabled them from sharing their story and brought hardship to them when they tried because people who look up to me didn’t want to hear it. I didn’t think that I was doing any of that because my position allowed me not to think about it.
There is nothing about this that I forgive myself for. And I have to reconcile it with who I am. Which is nothing compared to the task I left them with.
I wish I had reacted to their admiration of me by being a good example to them as a man and given them some guidance as a comedian, including because I admired their work.
The hardest regret to live with is what you’ve done to hurt someone else. And I can hardly wrap my head around the scope of hurt I brought on them. I’d be remiss to exclude the hurt that I’ve brought on people who I work with and have worked with who’s professional and personal lives have been impacted by all of this, including projects currently in production: the cast and crew of Better Things, Baskets, The Cops, One Mississippi, and I Love You Daddy. I deeply regret that this has brought negative attention to my manager Dave Becky who only tried to mediate a situation that I caused. I’ve brought anguish and hardship to the people at FX who have given me so much The Orchard who took a chance on my movie. and every other entity that has bet on me through the years.
I’ve brought pain to my family, my friends, my children and their mother.
I have spent my long and lucky career talking and saying anything I want. I will now step back and take a long time to listen.
Thank you for reading.
These stories are true. At the time, I said to myself that what I did was okay because I never showed a woman my dick without asking first, which is also true. But what I learned later in life, too late, is that when you have power over another person, asking them to look at your dick isn’t a question. It’s a predicament for them. The power I had over these women is that they admired me. And I wielded that power irresponsibly.
I have been remorseful of my actions. And I’ve tried to learn from them. And run from them. Now I’m aware of the extent of the impact of my actions. I learned yesterday the extent to which I left these women who admired me feeling badly about themselves and cautious around other men who would never have put them in that position.
I also took advantage of the fact that I was widely admired in my and their community, which disabled them from sharing their story and brought hardship to them when they tried because people who look up to me didn’t want to hear it. I didn’t think that I was doing any of that because my position allowed me not to think about it.
There is nothing about this that I forgive myself for. And I have to reconcile it with who I am. Which is nothing compared to the task I left them with.
I wish I had reacted to their admiration of me by being a good example to them as a man and given them some guidance as a comedian, including because I admired their work.
The hardest regret to live with is what you’ve done to hurt someone else. And I can hardly wrap my head around the scope of hurt I brought on them. I’d be remiss to exclude the hurt that I’ve brought on people who I work with and have worked with who’s professional and personal lives have been impacted by all of this, including projects currently in production: the cast and crew of Better Things, Baskets, The Cops, One Mississippi, and I Love You Daddy. I deeply regret that this has brought negative attention to my manager Dave Becky who only tried to mediate a situation that I caused. I’ve brought anguish and hardship to the people at FX who have given me so much The Orchard who took a chance on my movie. and every other entity that has bet on me through the years.
I’ve brought pain to my family, my friends, my children and their mother.
I have spent my long and lucky career talking and saying anything I want. I will now step back and take a long time to listen.
Thank you for reading.
Is it a crime if he asked someone to see his junk, they said no, then he said, come on, it’s okay. Then they said yes, because of who he was. Then later on they felt bad about it and now they’re reporting it.
I wasn’t there, so I don’t know how it all played out. But I’m just curious if that is in the same league as rape or touching someone withouand their consent.
Not sure if it's a crime, but as Louis CK admits, it is sexual misconduct and a shameful abuse of power.
Putting folks in situations you know they don't want to be in is not a wise move.
Where does the line get crossed?
High school QB, takes a nerdy girl out, he likes her, she likes him, but he’s mainly looking to get in her pants. He’s the most popular kid in school, she’s a nobody, but really cute.
They go out, he buys her dinner, takes he back to his place because his parents are gone. They start making out, he takes off her top, starts to take off her pants. She says, no, I’m not sure I want to do this. He says, come on, I like you, you’re my girl. She thinks about it and realizes that she doesn’t want to go back to being just the nerdy girl. She wants to be his girlfriend. They have sex.
Later on she regrets it.
Is this sexual misconduct?
Is it behavior you'd want your impressionable daughter subject to?
Just writing that out, you had to know what the guy was doing was unethical.
Likely not illegal at all but most certainly grounded in lies and emotional manipulation and almost certain to result in regret and hurt feelings.
If this is the behavior you want to protect, defend, or exclude from resulting in public humiliation, that's your choice. However the girl in your story has every right to go public and say "hey this douche lied and tricked me into having sex," and there would be nothing false about it. Any humiliation or embarrassment the QB or his family felt as a result would be entirely deserved.
It's like society has lost all value for empathy and compassion.
Whoa, settle down scooter.
I’m just having dialogue. I’m not defending anyone. I provided an example for us to consider and discuss.
At what point is the guy not at fault in this scenario? If him and the girl continue to date - is he no longer at fault? What if they have multiple sexual encounters? Or is the only thing that matters is that the girl regrets it? Is that now the grounds for sexual misconduct?
I'm not sure that meets the legal definition of sexual misconduct, though that varies from state to state.
What we can hopefully agree on is that if he coerced her to have sex with him by lying and/or emotionally manipulating her, he's acted unethically.
Now if he then realizes that she's awesome and they continue to date, then you've got an aberrant situation wherein I suppose she'll never find out he acted like a jerk.
Otherwise she can and maybe should bad mouth him or let other folks know he's not to be trusted, but he seemingly didn't break any laws.
This is certainly a worthwhile discussion as it's sadly socially acceptable for boys to manipulate girls in situations similar to the one you've described, hopefully that will also begin to change with girls stepping forward to say "hey that dude is a douche, he lied / manipulated me in having sex."
I'd hope parents of young men make it abundantly clear that such behavior is reprehensible, regardless of the prevailing "locker room" talk.
Basically, just because it's not illegal, doesn't mean it's acceptable or shouldn't be called out publicly.
I’m in the process of watching Stranger Things and the most recent episode is the one where Steve and Nancy hooked up. Not sure if you’ve seen it. Anyway, I got the idea from that episode.
My concern, whether right or wrong, is that men will be deemed as aggressors, because women will have second thoughts about what they did after the fact. The Winston situation comes to mind.
Another example, if I take a nude picture of a girl I’m dating, we then break up, but I keep the picture. I look at it from time to time, maybe even rub one out to it. Is that sexual misconduct?
Yea, I actually pictured the Steve/Nancy situation while reading your post. I think that falls under the category of Steve being unethical in their initial sexual encounter. Doesn't rise to the level of a crime though it is cruel/manipulative behavior.
In a typical power dynamic men are the initiators, and in a scenario where they're coercing (physically or verbally) the woman then they are, as you said, the aggressor. It's important that men make sure the woman is okay with what's going on, if they sense any uncertainty, be it verbal or just a scared look, they should pull away for a sec to make sure everyone is on the same page.
Jaboo, based on the legal docs we all read, likely did not commit a crime. He likely did treat the girl poorly / unethically. I'd hope he's learned to be a better man from that massively unfortunate incident. Act like a jerk with the wrong person and you could find yourself on the receiving end of a Willie Meggs prostate exam.
As far as playing pocket pool to an ex's nude photo - it's definitely not anywhere near the legal definition of sexual misconduct. Likely still something you should keep to yourself.
How come people that I want out their position aren't caught up in these allegations: Sunil Gulati, Rick Smith (Texans GM), Chuck Kelly, Rick Trrickett
Not sure about 3 of those dudes but CK is WAY too much of a sweetheart to do anything aggressive.
Dude doesn't even let his players within 7 feet of the opposite side.
I've never gotten into trouble at work either. Most guys haven't. You are n of 1. This is why due process is important. People lack critical reasoning skills (see prevalence of religion) and theory of mind (e.g. generalizing everyone's experiences and thought process from your own).
You don't need evidence for harassment claims to harm people.
I agree that we should be policing our fellow men. However, as I've pointed out before. Women overwhelmingly are reported as the victims of domestic violence. However, most controlled studies on the issue show initiation of violence is effectively identical.
If we are talking rapes, I agree, men are overwhelmingly the perps. But, sexual harassment is defined very loosely. And, women are just as likely to inject and discuss sexuality in their daily environment as men. Where things get itchy are in the margins of this and where I see the interaction of power, personality disorder and politics.
The current wave of "me too" complaining is obviously in vogue, and the media dutifully provides each complainant the 15 minutes of desired attention. These he said/she said cases are difficult to prove even when they are timely reported. But when you wait 10-20-30-40 years to come forward, I immediately wonder if the "incident" was all that momentous (or if it happened at all). How is anyone supposed to reliably sort out the facts when you wait that long to come forward? I suspect some of these things actually happened, but if it wasn't sufficiently important to come forward 30 years ago, I struggle to see why it is suddenly important today.
This statement is true.
One unfortunate consequence of this issue is that we are automatically assuming guilty of the accused. I’m all for punishing pervs - once they are proven guilty.
Agree. The narrative that women are all innocent little princesses is beyond annoying. They're every bit as bad as men. They just never get called out on it.
Yes. And, you have Bacardi types in power, who, based on their never having been accused of anything by an irrational or power seeking human, assume that it is because of their impeccable and unassailably professional behavior that it has never happened and that it is because other people don't share those traits that it happens to them. Basically, if you are accused you did something wrong.
People need to read and understand what a fundamental attribution error is. People need to be taught statistics and critical reasoning skills. Our biggest problem here is that people are dumb.
30-40 years ago sexual harassment was no big deal. Unwanted touches like quick shoulder rubs and pats on the ass, and more verbal sexual advances were something a woman had to deal with fairly often .....or move onto another job. So I can imagine it would be quite cathartic even 40 years later to point out what a creep somebody was back in the day. I also think you really miss the point bigly by saying “complaining is obviously in vogue, and the media dutifully provides each complainant the 15 minutes of desired attention“. Maybe think about what you are saying. I have several friends and two family members getting this off their chest and it really seems like to them a nice venting of something that has bothered them for a long time. It is not for 15 minutes of Facebook fame, I assure you.
My original point was (in summary) "the definition of what is acceptable/unacceptable is changing (and therefore the definition of "pervs"). I think everyone here would support "perv punishment" but the problem with that is, at the moment, is that definition is shifting...and in all likelihood will shift too far, followed by a shift back toward where it was last year, etc. etc. until it reaches an equilibrium point that is the new version of "acceptable behavior". The transition is always troublesome.
By way of vague example: I entered the professional-level labor force in the late 80s, back when all men wore a tie to work (and at the minimum had a jacket stashed somewhere) and State Employees could and often did smoke cigarettes in their office. Some managerial types go to work suited-up every day still, but I don't know of any in the US that sit at their desk and chain smoke anymore, especially government employees. While racially-based comments were mostly extinguished by then, we were barely aware of what we were doing within gender groups. More specifically, I performed a lot of back-rubs during the course of a typical work week, in my role of entry-level brainiac reporting to a succession of female bosses (with others dispensed to whatever random women wanted one). When I moved away from Tallahassee to the deep end of the labor pool that practice stopped immediately - but it still freaks me out to think about the specifics of my behavior in those days, even though, back then, "it was ok".
I just find it odd that these starlets and other public figures now voicing their complaints do it through agents, public relations agencies and press releases. So, yes, they are very consciously seeking media attention. Why don't they just file lawsuits, or call the cops, if they have been wronged? How did your friends and two family members voice their complaints? Not arguing with you, but curious about the situations you referenced. Thanks.
This has been way more than just stars doing this. The public figures did not come out due to possible career impacts. Go read LCKs apology and confession. It is enlightening. He admits everything and more importantly admits he was using his position of power and fame to behave in such a manner. And their stories were repressed or buried for over a decade with threat of hurting their career.
6-7 friends and two family members (cousins) made simple me too posts. Nothing more, nothing less. But I know at a minimum it means they endured sexual harassment and maybe sexual assault, so it was depressing to see so many.
Another possibility is that you have an accusation=guilt standard without any room for other possibilities. I don't think anyone is saying sexual harassment or assault is acceptable. What I am reading is that some of us wonder if some of these things are true or are there other factors involved. Just look at Duke, UVA, Tawana Braley etc.; there are examples of false claims that the media and others run with; and those in the cross hairs have their lives destroyed forever.
Absolutely not. A simple allegation means nothing to me except that further corroboration and/or investigation is necessary. Regardless of if it's a public matter or private corporate matter.
Yes there are false accusers, no, that doesn't taint my opinion of those who accuse. All allegations warrant a respectful and thorough inquiry - ideally kept confidential but also protecting the accuser in the interim.
That's common sense. That you'd think otherwise of me is insulting.
Fair enough but that is how you come across. Sure an investigation is warranted; however that is not how it often happens. Accusation made male is presumed guilty by many; if it is a public case the media trashes the guy, life destroyed. When/if it comes out that it never really happened; to bad so sad your life is over. When the whole Jameis thing was going on 1 journalist can't remember her name did an investigative report on male college students accused of rape where criminal charges were dropped. The school went after them via the Title 9 thing and these guys were trashed. Kicked out of school, could not get into any other schools etc. Even though they were deemed innocent in court. Another example of what I see as a massive double standard is the whole female teacher thing that this board often posts. The female usually gets a light sentence and we rate on whether we would do her or not. I get it what 17 y/o guy wouldn't want a hot 25 y/o teacher; but at the end of the day it is no different than a 25 y/o male teacher doing the same thing. However they are not punished or viewed the same way.
None of this does anything to convince me that women should not be encouraged and enabled to come forward with their experiences with sexual misconduct, harassment, and assault - regardless
We cannot live in a world where victims are afraid to step forward.
It's game day - no more on this from me for now. Time to focus.
I don’t think he’s saying that they shouldn’t come forward. I think he’s questioning the fairness of assuming the accused is automatically guilty, the accuser is automatically to be believed, and the vilification of anyone that says - “whoa, let’s get all the facts before we start trashing people.”
See your initial response to my first post. I had to slow you down in order to have a civil conversation. You were ready to come at me just because I asked a question.
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/george-takei-shocked-bewildered-over-134826476.html
Oh My!
George Takei 'shocked & bewildered' at sexual assault claims made against him
Star Trek icon George Takei has respond to an accusation of sexual assault made against him by a former model and actor who alleged an incident at Takei’s home in 1981. In a series of tweets this morning, Takei writes that the events “simply did not occur.” He adds that he does not remember Scott R Brunton, who made the allegations in a The Hollywood Reporter interview which ran on Friday. “I am as shocked and bewildered at these claims as you must feel reading them,” Takei continues to his 2.79 million followers.
Statute of limitations needs to become perfectly clear - otherwise Beiber will be accusing Jefferson Davis (via his estate) of sexual misconduct. Why didn't Brunton come forward 10 years ago? Or 30 years ago? Was he afraid he'd meet with a "transporter accident?"
Oh My!
George Takei 'shocked & bewildered' at sexual assault claims made against him
Star Trek icon George Takei has respond to an accusation of sexual assault made against him by a former model and actor who alleged an incident at Takei’s home in 1981. In a series of tweets this morning, Takei writes that the events “simply did not occur.” He adds that he does not remember Scott R Brunton, who made the allegations in a The Hollywood Reporter interview which ran on Friday. “I am as shocked and bewildered at these claims as you must feel reading them,” Takei continues to his 2.79 million followers.
Statute of limitations needs to become perfectly clear - otherwise Beiber will be accusing Jefferson Davis (via his estate) of sexual misconduct. Why didn't Brunton come forward 10 years ago? Or 30 years ago? Was he afraid he'd meet with a "transporter accident?"
People need to understand that crazy people are everywhere. Take a look at how pantera's guitar player was murderer and why. Some nut convinced himself that he was stolen froM and shot him.
Crazy people allege crazy things and perceive and say untrue things.
I agree we should encourage people with credible claims to come forward. But you can't sink someone with no evidence.
Bacardi has made it clear that he thinks he has control over whether someone alleges that he misbehaves and that if they make something up it will be easy to prove otherwise. And, further, people who are accused have behaved inappropriately regardless of the validity of a claim.
That's not what he claims. The fact remains that men harass and assault women and they report it at extremely low numbers historically. Men assault women at a much higher rate than women assault men.
So when women start to speak up it's a good thing. That doesn't mean throw a rope over the nearest tree, but calling every one who comes forward a gold digger because it's someone you like isn't the answer either.
So when women start to speak up it's a good thing. That doesn't mean throw a rope over the nearest tree, but calling every one who comes forward a gold digger because it's someone you like isn't the answer either.
Depends which post of his you read. It is exactly what he has claimed. I can piece it together for you if you'd like.
As far as the rest. Sexual assaults are likely much higher skewed men>women. Harassment, id need to know the working operational definition. Not so sure with the current standard that seems to be floating around out there.
I do agree that we shouldn't call accusers gold diggers. But, I will say that rational people often do not come forward if they don't have any evidence. That isn't to say that they don't come forward but when someone comes forward wth no evidence id guess the rate of psychopathology is likely much higher than chance. Why, it's a pretty loud drama card regardless of veracity. And victims don't tend to like that.
Regardless, I think it's important to have a safe way for people to report sexual harassment and assault. I think one way to do that is to be sure to be stone cold clear on what that means and what it doesn't.
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