I think due process in spirit matters to since there are major financial and social consequences to the current situation. One could sue for slander or libel but then effectively creates a flipping of due process anyway. People are being convicted in the court of public opinion. The allegation is enough to taint and damage. It’s not an easy thing to defend against, which is why it’s a powerful weapon.
Cosby => Harvey W et. al. => what's next?
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I think due process in spirit matters to since there are major financial and social consequences to the current situation. One could sue for slander or libel but then effectively creates a flipping of due process anyway. People are being convicted in the court of public opinion. The allegation is enough to taint and damage. It’s not an easy thing to defend against, which is why it’s a powerful weapon.
Slander and libel laws don't apply when the accusation is made in a court proceeding.
It's interesting how you talk about freedom not being limited in this kind of situation because a few people abuse it. Our system was designed to protect everyone. That's why we have the notion of innocent until proven guilty. It costs an accuser nothing to make an accusation, especially if it's criminal. The accused bears a great cost whether guilty or innocent. The cost isn't just monetary, it's also reputation. The law, and MSM policy already protects women. If we want to be fair, shield laws should protect men unless or until they are found guilty.
You don't seem to think there are false accusations. Perhaps you should visit family court once in awhile and see for yourself. It goes both ways, BTW. That said, intentionally or not, women seem to get the benefit of the doubt.
Agree but in a free society there's not much we can do to negate that. Certainly can't limit the victim's ability to come forward or speak about their own experiences.
Slander / libel laws aren't perfect but they are the balance the law provides us.
Never implied slander/libel laws applied in a court proceeding. I said if someone makes some false claims publicly, the target can seek recourse through the aforementioned laws.
As for freedom, those wrongly accused are protected via slander and libel laws (ask Hulk Hogan). The concept of innocent until proven guilty is part of the foundation of our legal system but that certainly doesn't apply within a society that has no power as your judge or jury.
As far as the cost to the accuser of making an accusation, slander and libel laws can be quite punitive, again see Hulk/Gawker.
And if you want to be fair, shield laws should protect the accused regardless of gender, which I'd be fine with so long as the accused is protected from their alleged abuser to avoid any potential additional abuses.
As far as me thinking there aren't false accusations... I literally just wrote the following. Please read before making random statements.
and...
I read what you wrote.
What is the recourse for a normal guy (or gal) against an their ex when a false accusation is made? How much does it cost to retain an attorney to file such a claim, and even winning such a suit doesn't undo the accusation and taint. Even if a regular person prevails, it's likely they accuser won't have much money.
As far as your quote - "now some folks will make false claims", you are trivializing those making false claims. Your solution is just to sue them for slander.
Women should be able to come forward with any kind of claim of abuse or harassment, if it's real. A lot of this stuff happens in private, and that's where the problem comes in. Bacardi, whether you realize it or not, you come across as a zealot in this thread, advocating for the accuser over the accused. All I'm saying is you can't trample those who may be innocent along the way.
It's tragic that women who were assaulted or harassed 10, 20, 30, or 40 years ago felt like they couldn't do anything about it. The thing is, they had a choice. Maybe all the accusations are valid. Maybe most are valid. Certainly a lot of guys have owned up to the recent accusations, and that's a good thing. It's not really fair to guys who did nothing wrong, or to guys whose actions were innocent at the time, to have to disprove something 10, 20, 30 or 40 years later. For example, someone takes an office picture and people have their arms over each other, or just hanging down, and a guy touches a gal inadvertently. Now, years later, it becomes harassment, or even assault. How does the guy counter that? He sues for slander or libel? Really?
I'm not blaming victims. I am saying victims should speak up as soon as possible if they want to get justice. Justice is not served by waiting, and the victim's peace of mind probably isn't being helped much either. Sure, it might take a little while to get past the initial shock.
Though obviously I am sympathetic to this position, as a counter, my high school band teacher is in prison for the rest of his life. He had sex with several young girls beteeen the ages of 14-16. One shot herself in the heart, committing suicide as a result. Two others then made complaints and there was a trial. He was found not guilty. The case made national news. Two girls from where he previously worked saw it and came forward with similar accusations right at the end of the statute of limitations. That nailed him. To make matters worse, the prior school knew and agreed not to out him if he left (he left and came to my school).
If you are one person and it’s he said she said, it’s a very difficult road.
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Simply advocating for the accuser's First Amendment rights. Legal system is set up such that slander and libel laws are the check on that - any issue with that is a broader discussion beyond context of sexual harassment / assault.
Yes, like many things in the legal system, the wealthy are favored, again, broader topic beyond subject matter of this thread.
Actions innocent at the time are still actions. Can't legally preclude someone from sharing something that happened to them years ago just b/c it is embarrassing for someone else.
Agreed, however for a number of reasons emotional, professional, financial, coercion, etc... victims have found it difficult. We should work to make it less difficult and easier to speak up immediately so we don't have to parse these things 10, 20, 30, or 40 years later.
To the extent that they are the victims of someone else's actions, it's entirely their choice when to speak up, even if it proves to be an inconvenience to their abuser/harasser.
BTW. Regarding the high school situation. Why he was found not guilty is interesting.
- the girl (14) that shot her self left a suicide note and stated that she was in a sexual relationship with him and that he spurned her and she couldn’t handle it, essentially.
- one of the girls that came forward, her mother was also having an affair wth the guy. The defense was that she was just jealous and angry about it.
- there was also a race angle. Teacher was black. One girl white, the other Hispanic. Defense alleged racism in community driving a lynch mob mentality.
-found not guilty.
Obviously, 2nd time through had more success since they were able to use the girls from my high school in the other case.
- the girl (14) that shot her self left a suicide note and stated that she was in a sexual relationship with him and that he spurned her and she couldn’t handle it, essentially.
- one of the girls that came forward, her mother was also having an affair wth the guy. The defense was that she was just jealous and angry about it.
- there was also a race angle. Teacher was black. One girl white, the other Hispanic. Defense alleged racism in community driving a lynch mob mentality.
-found not guilty.
Obviously, 2nd time through had more success since they were able to use the girls from my high school in the other case.
Terry Crews understands proper procedure - I hope other victims learn from him! He fired his talent agency and filed a report with the police the very next day.
https://www.yahoo.com/gma/terry-cre...t-shamed-150807405--abc-news-celebrities.html
Terry Crews names alleged sexual assaulter: 'I will not be shamed'
Terry Crews publicly named for the first time the high-powered talent agent he claims groped him at an industry party and said he would "not be shamed" about the alleged assault.
"Back in February 2016, I was assaulted by Adam Venit, who is head of the Motion Picture Department at William Morris Endeavor, one of the biggest agencies in the world, period," Crews, 49, said today on "Good Morning America." "He’s connected to probably everyone I know in the business ... I did not know this man. I have never had a conversation with him, ever."
Actor Terry Crews filed a police report as a crime victim, says LAPD source
https://www.yahoo.com/gma/terry-cre...t-shamed-150807405--abc-news-celebrities.html
Terry Crews names alleged sexual assaulter: 'I will not be shamed'
Terry Crews publicly named for the first time the high-powered talent agent he claims groped him at an industry party and said he would "not be shamed" about the alleged assault.
"Back in February 2016, I was assaulted by Adam Venit, who is head of the Motion Picture Department at William Morris Endeavor, one of the biggest agencies in the world, period," Crews, 49, said today on "Good Morning America." "He’s connected to probably everyone I know in the business ... I did not know this man. I have never had a conversation with him, ever."
Actor Terry Crews filed a police report as a crime victim, says LAPD source
Of the women with whom I have worked who were sexually harassed, abused, or assaulted; I would estimate <10% were able to report the crime, and of those who did report, >50% strongly regretted doing so and felt terribly traumatized by the events that occurred following the report.
So what are the solutions? That's plural because I'm sure it depends on the person and circumstances. Do you think it's OK for women to suffer in silence for years, only to come out many years later with an accusation? Is it possible that such suffering ratchets up the scale of some events in the victim's mind? How would you propose we protect innocent people from being unjustly accused, especially years later when they have no way to defend themselves?
It's a tough situation, especially when there are no witnesses.
I think that there has to be a fundamental sociocultural shift around toxic masculinity, which is a much bigger and longer conversation.
I don't think it's okay for anybody to have to suffer in silence for years, but I do strongly support a victim's right to disclose or not disclose their suffering for as long as they need to in order to protect themselves from further trauma. I have not had any experiences with nondisclosure ratcheting up the scale of the traumatizing events; if anything the nondisclosure is occasionally associated with minimizing the events as a type defense mechanism against the trauma. I honestly do not believe that innocent people need any protection from unjust accusations. An innocent person will be defended by his history and the people who know him well.
I am spending a lot of time in sessions these days helping men work through their paranoia regarding the possibility of an accusation, and we invariably return to the fact that men who are innocent will not suffer multiple false accusations and they will have multiple vocal, credible defenders.
Thank you for your response, UCLA. When it comes to victims, my guess is that some take a little time to get over the shock of an event. Obviously you deal with situations that haven't become public, so your experience is wide ranging. When I spoke of ratcheting up, it was based on the public account of one of HW Bush's accusers. He grabbed her butt in a public place, and she said he sexually assaulted her. Clearly what he did was wrong, but I think the definition of sexual assault was being stretched.
I do think you are naive when it comes to the effect on innocent people of being unjustly accused. It doesn't take more than one accusation to ruin someone's life, and it doesn't matter how people perceived the person before the accusation, especially in today's climate.
I'm not creative enough to come up with a solution that's fair to everyone. I've made a couple of suggestions in other posts, but they aren't far reaching at all.
I do think you are naive when it comes to the effect on innocent people of being unjustly accused. It doesn't take more than one accusation to ruin someone's life, and it doesn't matter how people perceived the person before the accusation, especially in today's climate.
I'm not creative enough to come up with a solution that's fair to everyone. I've made a couple of suggestions in other posts, but they aren't far reaching at all.
The interesting thing about toxic masculinity is that we recognize it in other cultures but tend to ignore it in our own. Sure, how they treat women in Pakistan is wrong - but we're so much better than that, so problem solved!
Got me, ask the shrink.
Anything more that us is caveman, anything less is puss. We're perfect. Aside from all the rapey/wife beating/harassment stuff. But they lie about that most the time, amirite!
That is surprising and foreign to me. What would make an innocent person have such paranoia on this topic to seek therapy?
By the general definitions of which I am aware, nonconsensual touching of a person's buttocks is considered a sexual assault.
I have worked with a few men who have been unjustly accused, and I have seen how it impacted their lives in severe ways. Yet, I am often asked to choose between potentially harmful outcomes, e.g., involuntarily hospitalizations, breaking confidentiality, sending the police to a person's home for a welfare check, calling DCFS, etc. It sucks, but there's no avoiding it and the calculus is based upon preventing the greater harm. The fact that I have seen <5 men unjustly accused and literally hundreds of men and women who have been victimized but are too afraid and/or traumatized to levy an accusation or even share with their families and friends that they have been harmed weighs heavily on my perspective. In my career, I have literally encountered only one woman who made a false accusation, and it was against a colleague. He was irritated by the accusation, but it caused him no harm.
The far reaching solutions are those for which posters like Bacardi have been advocating very clearly and admirably on the board. The culture of toxic masculinity must be changed, and an initial step in that process is for men to accept without defensiveness or pushback the sense of vulnerability and fear with which women have been experiencing our society since its inception.
sense of vulnerability and fear with which women have been experiencing our society since its inception.
Not just "our society" - ours is better about this than most. It's going to be difficult to maintain our "melting pot culture" when some significant amount of new immigrant arrivals - whom we encourage to bring their culture here with them, right? - have their bags packed with their own cultural norms that do not fit the "down with depredations" movement.
I am in full agreement with changing this aspect of our culture - but I have my doubts as to our society's ability to pull off a change of this pervasiveness. We have trouble getting people to follow simple tax laws and simple vehicle laws, and lots of trouble getting immigrants to follow immigration laws. We have great difficulty getting different ethnic groups to follow the Fair Housing Act of 1968 and the Fair Employment act of 1941.
As soon as Jackie Chiles claims "my client was acting well within his lifelong cultural norms, which stipulate that butt-grabbing is not only accepted, but an integral aspect of my client's religion in the context of selecting a potential bride" we end up in a civil throwdown that will likely make things worse on both sides, the gender-protectors and the culture-protectors.
Not just "our society" - ours is better about this than most. It's going to be difficult to maintain our "melting pot culture" when some significant amount of new immigrant arrivals - whom we encourage to bring their culture here with them, right? - have their bags packed with their own cultural norms that do not fit the "down with depredations" movement.
I am in full agreement with changing this aspect of our culture - but I have my doubts as to our society's ability to pull off a change of this pervasiveness. We have trouble getting people to follow simple tax laws and simple vehicle laws, and lots of trouble getting immigrants to follow immigration laws. We have great difficulty getting different ethnic groups to follow the Fair Housing Act of 1968 and the Fair Employment act of 1941.
As soon as Jackie Chiles claims "my client was acting well within his lifelong cultural norms, which stipulate that butt-grabbing is not only accepted, but an integral aspect of my client's religion in the context of selecting a potential bride" we end up in a civil throwdown that will likely make things worse on both sides, the gender-protectors and the culture-protectors.
Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to welcome your next act to the stage, how about a big round of jeers for Al Franken...
I've been a fan of Franken in the Senate, never got into his comedy. Have seen him speak in person as a Senator and think he really 'gets it' at a Congressperson... but if true, this should end of his time in Congress.
I've been a fan of Franken in the Senate, never got into his comedy. Have seen him speak in person as a Senator and think he really 'gets it' at a Congressperson... but if true, this should end of his time in Congress.
She, and women who act as she did, are as much a part of the problem as the scumbags perpetrators:
- "As a TV host and sports broadcaster, as well as a model familiar to the audience from the covers of FHM, Maxim and Playboy, I was only expecting to emcee and introduce the acts"....thanks for sharing the "I'm so hot!" portion of your resume, moron. That doesn't really help your argument. On her tax return, does she list her profession as "eye candy"?
- "He continued to insist, and I was beginning to get uncomfortable."....who cares? I feel uncomfortable taking a left turn while going north on Thomasville Rd. Can you book me on Oprah so I can share my feelings? Leaving the room would have solved this problem...or kicking him in the nads.
- "He repeated that actors really need to rehearse everything and that we must practice the kiss. I said ‘OK’ so he would stop badgering me." Sounds like "consent" to me - from someone dumb enough to take "acting advice" from a comedian.
- "Relax Al, this isn’t SNL…we don’t need to rehearse the kiss". Absolutely true...then you let him kiss you anyway. Idiot.
- "I immediately pushed him away with both of my hands against his chest and told him if he ever did that to me again I wouldn’t be so nice about it the next time." Can everyone get a freebie, lady, or just random dudes who you think can help your "career"?
- "Franken repaid me with petty insults, including drawing devil horns on at least one of the headshots I was autographing for the troops." O. M. G. !! Petty insults!!! Call Oprah again!...and more importantly, exactly what is it you deserve to be "repaid" for?
- the title "
Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent, And There’s Nothing Funny About It"
is only half-correct. You DID consent to kiss him.
- "I said ‘OK’ so he would stop badgering me." Telemarketers and car salesmen must LOVE you!
- And the most common theme to SO many of these stories - "I wanted to shout my story to the world with a megaphone to anyone who would listen, but even as angry as I was, I was worried about the potential backlash and damage going public might have on my career as a broadcaster."
- "As a TV host and sports broadcaster, as well as a model familiar to the audience from the covers of FHM, Maxim and Playboy, I was only expecting to emcee and introduce the acts"....thanks for sharing the "I'm so hot!" portion of your resume, moron. That doesn't really help your argument. On her tax return, does she list her profession as "eye candy"?
- "He continued to insist, and I was beginning to get uncomfortable."....who cares? I feel uncomfortable taking a left turn while going north on Thomasville Rd. Can you book me on Oprah so I can share my feelings? Leaving the room would have solved this problem...or kicking him in the nads.
- "He repeated that actors really need to rehearse everything and that we must practice the kiss. I said ‘OK’ so he would stop badgering me." Sounds like "consent" to me - from someone dumb enough to take "acting advice" from a comedian.
- "Relax Al, this isn’t SNL…we don’t need to rehearse the kiss". Absolutely true...then you let him kiss you anyway. Idiot.
- "I immediately pushed him away with both of my hands against his chest and told him if he ever did that to me again I wouldn’t be so nice about it the next time." Can everyone get a freebie, lady, or just random dudes who you think can help your "career"?
- "Franken repaid me with petty insults, including drawing devil horns on at least one of the headshots I was autographing for the troops." O. M. G. !! Petty insults!!! Call Oprah again!...and more importantly, exactly what is it you deserve to be "repaid" for?
- the title "
Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent, And There’s Nothing Funny About It"
is only half-correct. You DID consent to kiss him.
- "I said ‘OK’ so he would stop badgering me." Telemarketers and car salesmen must LOVE you!
- And the most common theme to SO many of these stories - "I wanted to shout my story to the world with a megaphone to anyone who would listen, but even as angry as I was, I was worried about the potential backlash and damage going public might have on my career as a broadcaster."
Here's the picture of al franken
http://www.kabc.com/2017/11/16/leeann-tweeden-on-senator-al-franken/
http://www.kabc.com/2017/11/16/leeann-tweeden-on-senator-al-franken/
Al has apologized and is proclaiming his profound respect for women...idiot
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/16/...xual-harassment-groping-forcible-kissing.html
Sylvester Stallone--
does this one count even though it's a rehash
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Stallone-accused-forcing-teen-threesome.html
does this one count even though it's a rehash
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Stallone-accused-forcing-teen-threesome.html
"Someday I will proclaim my great respect for women and there will be a fool out there that will actually believe me."
Probably real harsh; but the problem is in the past many have made a decision of guilt and punishment based on political views and not the actual crime or validity of the crime; so now they are stuck with their standard. I don't just mean politicians here. The JW case is a perfect example; even with all the evidence (or lack there of) he was and is still viewed as a rapist by a lot of people; they even made a movie about it and since the people who made the movie have a certain view it was nothing more than a trash job with very little facts. This really illustrates the point many of us are making that when you bring up actions from what has been decades ago and then apply the current mob mentality we have going on with this issue. For the record I am distinguishing rape and sexual harassment; IMO rape is a whole different category.
You see this big time in the military and not just with sexual abuse or harassment; but pretty much everything. A while back a young Soldier was hazed and due to the hazing it was determined he died. Well it was big news and all over the media. Shortly after this story a Soldier accused some NCOs in a unit that a good friend of mine was the CSM of. Stop everything and here comes the investigation that took a year and tarnished some good NCOs careers. In the end they were all cleared and the final outcome was that they shouldn't have made the Soldier do more than 25 push ups at once. Another example one of my Soldiers was a Drill Sergeant and was accused of an inappropriate act against a female recruit. He was investigated and they actually had a hearing; he was cleared. But wait at the time some high ranking leaders were accused as well in totally unrelated cases; but it made the news and was a big story. What happened, even though he was cleared he got a GOMAR (General Officer letter and not good). Fast forward 10 years later and as the military was going through down sizing this Soldier gets pulled up for being kicked out of the Army. I fought for him and we beat it; but all this because even though he was cleared some General Officer had to insure he was following the mob rule at the time.
I'm struggling with that.
Yes, there are shades of gray on the scumbag scale. Franken's boorish, childish, thoughtless actions don't rise to the level of pedophilia or rape nor do they seem to be at all reflected in his legislative decisions.
But, his actions were unbecoming of a lawmaker, whom we should hold to a higher standard than celebs, athletes, and Winn Dixie employees. For that I maintain some real discomfort. More practically, moving forward, will his effectiveness as a senator be limited by public knowledge of what he's done? I'd say yes. It will be used against him and right or wrong that will be a disservice to his constituents, the nation, and himself.
He's been a good senator but I should hope the state of Minnesota can produce more than one of those. He's not a unicorn.
I won't demand his resignation but given a choice I'd like to see it happen.
Oh boy :/
Making an encore appearance on the stage, Jameis Winston.
http://wfla.com/2017/11/17/nfl-inve...for-allegedly-groping-an-uber-driver-in-2016/
%$*#*(^... true or not this is not a good look.
Making an encore appearance on the stage, Jameis Winston.
http://wfla.com/2017/11/17/nfl-inve...for-allegedly-groping-an-uber-driver-in-2016/
%$*#*(^... true or not this is not a good look.
One of the things we hear on a regular basis is how people that conduct this type of behavior typically do it many times and rarely is this type of behavior a singular event. Although based on his legislative record, being a champion for women etc. I am sure this was a one off or even more likely he was given an Ambien prior to the flight taking off and had no idea what he was doing.
No one is making excuses for him, certainly not me.
Like I said, if it were my choice, he'd resign. I'll say the same about the next 400 guys in Congress who get put on blast as well.
To not be a pedophile, harasser, rapist, or groper is a very low bar to clear and if you can't even, you don't belong in Congress.
Completely agree however so far the level of condemnation is still low compared to some others out there. Even though the level of proof against Al is pretty darn high; I mean there is a photo and everything. This is why some folks have a hard time with how these type events are handled. I have no problem with a zero tolerance and destroying a person who is guilty of this type of behavior; the issue for me is how we destroy someone based on an accusation or in some cases who the person is and what "team" they are on. The media etc. could do all the victims a huge favor by keeping a single standard across the board. What I see now is person X accused and it is well you know this guy is so whatever; person Y is accused and it is off with their head. Look no further than the recent Atlantic article about a certain person and how NOW this is an issue and all kinds of mea culpas are being stated. I won't post the article to keep this out of the political arena.
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