Do you know anyone who is racist?

[Banditking]

That is also true. The word racism itself doesn't even mean what it used to mean.

Well it has the same very charged negative associations. It’s just a lot more thoughts and actions are considered racist, especially if politically expedient.

For what it’s worth, I’ve met many people who are conventionally racist, particularly in working with lower ses populations.

Oddly, I heard the n word uttered in a non-ironic manner (Ie by a white person intending to be racist) for the first time and relatively casually (very odd) in Boston and Chicago. This was after growing up in Miami and going to FSU. Was relatively shocking to me.

I have encountered people that were actively racist against white people as well. Some employed in very high levels in academic institutions. Kind of scary level of ignorance, especially because there is a bias in certain segments that it’s not possible nor meaningful.

Identity politics blow and the academic literature and discourse on this topic is infected by it.

The concept of being “color blind” is unlikely. People see color and recognize “other.” However, how in group and out group decisions are made is something that can be overcome. People can and do group based on other features. Ie people don’t have to be racists. Race is kind of an artificial construct anyways.

 

[seminole97]

Think what you want, but you are wrong and there is no possible way for either of us to prove our side.

I think you would refuse to accept any proof, so you could continue to think what you want.

 

[DanC78]

Is one acting racist in the this scenario?

The house next door to you is for sale. Three families look at it, each family has the exact same amount of kids you have, same ages, and same sex. The only difference is that only one of the families has the same ethnicity and religion as you and your family. The other two families are different.

When in this scenario, is it racist to naturally want the family that has same ethnicity and religion as you to move in? Or is it not racist?

Imo, I feel it’s not racist. I only believe it becomes racist if you were to not answer questions asked by the families the same, or if you were to mislead them or act cold to them in hopes they don’t move in.

Or perhaps it is a form of racism, but not a malicious form, if there is such a thing.

Thoughts?

 

[fsu1jreed]

Sorry, but you are wrong.

Actually, there's a lot of truth to what he said.........us/them (i.e. tribalism) is ingrained into us, though I really wish it wasn't and I really hope we can evolve past it at some point (though I'm not holding out hope that we ever will)

'Us versus them' social traits may have evolved in monkeys before humans

MOVING BEYOND TRIBALISM

Tribalism is simply the deeply ingrained human habit of identifying oneself in terms of the group; of viewing one’s own in-group as somehow special and superior to others; and of discouraging social intercourse (or any other type of intercourse) with members of the out-group. In many ways we are all prone to tribalism. It is deeply rooted in our evolutionary history and biological heritage. It stems from the kin selection that evolved in response to the ever-present dangers to self and family in primitive times: a process resulting in the encouragement of adult members of the clan to sacrifice themselves, if necessary, for the survival of their own offspring and those of their siblings. Because of the way evolution works, this pattern of behavior had the consequence of preserving the genes of those individuals who behaved in a tribalistic way, while eliminating the others… It is easy to see how, in the early stages of the development of the human species, these essentially tribal drives served to sustain and protect the group. Groups that did not respond to outsiders in this way failed to survive to reproduce their kind. This is why tribal feelings make us feel good in the deepest recesses of our being.

Is one acting racist in the this scenario?

The house next door to you is for sale. Three families look at it, each family has the exact same amount of kids you have, same ages, and same sex. The only difference is that only one of the families has the same ethnicity and religion as you and your family. The other two families are different.

When in this scenario, is it racist to naturally want the family that has same ethnicity and religion as you to move in? Or is it not racist?

Imo, I feel it’s not racist. I only believe it becomes racist if you were to not answer questions asked by the families the same, or if you were to mislead them or act cold to them in hopes they don’t move in.

Or perhaps it is a form of racism, but not a malicious form, if there is such a thing.

Thoughts?

I think this falls into a gray area.......an area very difficult to define

I can understand your side, because you'd like to have possible new friends that have in all likelihood have gone through many of the same experiences that you have therefore you would have much in common, which should create a closer bond between any two strangers. The other side of that coin is that just because someone isn't the same ethnicity/religion in no way means they haven't gone through the same experiences as you.

I really don't have an answer for this.

 

[Banditking]

Actually, there's a lot of truth to what he said.........us/them (i.e. tribalism) is ingrained into us, though I really wish it wasn't and I really hope we can evolve past it at some point (though I'm not holding out hope that we ever will)

'Us versus them' social traits may have evolved in monkeys before humans

MOVING BEYOND TRIBALISM

Tribalism is simply the deeply ingrained human habit of identifying oneself in terms of the group; of viewing one’s own in-group as somehow special and superior to others; and of discouraging social intercourse (or any other type of intercourse) with members of the out-group. In many ways we are all prone to tribalism. It is deeply rooted in our evolutionary history and biological heritage. It stems from the kin selection that evolved in response to the ever-present dangers to self and family in primitive times: a process resulting in the encouragement of adult members of the clan to sacrifice themselves, if necessary, for the survival of their own offspring and those of their siblings. Because of the way evolution works, this pattern of behavior had the consequence of preserving the genes of those individuals who behaved in a tribalistic way, while eliminating the others… It is easy to see how, in the early stages of the development of the human species, these essentially tribal drives served to sustain and protect the group. Groups that did not respond to outsiders in this way failed to survive to reproduce their kind. This is why tribal feelings make us feel good in the deepest recesses of our being.



I think this falls into a gray area.......an area very difficult to define

I can understand your side, because you'd like to have possible new friends that have in all likelihood have gone through many of the same experiences that you have therefore you would have much in common, which should create a closer bond between any two strangers. The other side of that coin is that just because someone isn't the same ethnicity/religion in no way means they haven't gone through the same experiences as you.

I really don't have an answer for this.

Hey there.

So, in general I agree. In group/out group exclusions are why I’ve argued the modern critical race theory anchored progressivism version of race speak creates more division and increases the potential for racism. In my opinion, we are better off teaching people that race doesn’t matter and promoting a melting pot, we are one nation rubric (the melting pot concept).

However, evolutionary theory applied this way is not really science. It’s speculation.

 

[RunRonnieRun]

Is one acting racist in the this scenario?

The house next door to you is for sale. Three families look at it, each family has the exact same amount of kids you have, same ages, and same sex. The only difference is that only one of the families has the same ethnicity and religion as you and your family. The other two families are different.

When in this scenario, is it racist to naturally want the family that has same ethnicity and religion as you to move in? Or is it not racist?

Imo, I feel it’s not racist. I only believe it becomes racist if you were to not answer questions asked by the families the same, or if you were to mislead them or act cold to them in hopes they don’t move in.

Or perhaps it is a form of racism, but not a malicious form, if there is such a thing.

Thoughts?

Passive racism is still racism.

 

[fsu1jreed]

Hey there.

Yo!

However, evolutionary theory applied this way is not really science. It’s speculation.

You should have clicked this link:

'Us versus them' social traits may have evolved in monkeys before humans

Researchers from the UK and Italy analysed data from past field studies of 27 wild groups of primates belonging to 15 different 'old world' species. They compared instances of aggression between groups -- known as intergroup contest competition -- with behaviours known to strengthen social bonds within groups, such as grooming.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Our study is the first to provide some support of a positive link between behaviour which benefits others within the group and the intensity of competition with other groups of primates.

Now does it PROVE the connection? Nope, but you can NEVER prove any theory, you can only disprove it. With that said, the connection is far from just speculation.

 

[NoleMoreTears]

Is one acting racist in the this scenario?

The house next door to you is for sale. Three families look at it, each family has the exact same amount of kids you have, same ages, and same sex. The only difference is that only one of the families has the same ethnicity and religion as you and your family. The other two families are different.

When in this scenario, is it racist to naturally want the family that has same ethnicity and religion as you to move in? Or is it not racist?

Not overtly racist but the studies and stats show there will be a preference nonetheless. If you multiply that preference enough times then different groups will rise and fall disproportionately.

 

[NoleMoreTears]

Yo!



You should have clicked this link:

'Us versus them' social traits may have evolved in monkeys before humans

Researchers from the UK and Italy analysed data from past field studies of 27 wild groups of primates belonging to 15 different 'old world' species. They compared instances of aggression between groups -- known as intergroup contest competition -- with behaviours known to strengthen social bonds within groups, such as grooming.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Our study is the first to provide some support of a positive link between behaviour which benefits others within the group and the intensity of competition with other groups of primates.

Now does it PROVE the connection? Nope, but you can NEVER prove any theory, you can only disprove it. With that said, the connection is far from just speculation.

Pretty sure that's the case in bees and other social insects.

 

[Banditking]

Yo!



You should have clicked this link:

'Us versus them' social traits may have evolved in monkeys before humans

Researchers from the UK and Italy analysed data from past field studies of 27 wild groups of primates belonging to 15 different 'old world' species. They compared instances of aggression between groups -- known as intergroup contest competition -- with behaviours known to strengthen social bonds within groups, such as grooming.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Our study is the first to provide some support of a positive link between behaviour which benefits others within the group and the intensity of competition with other groups of primates.

Now does it PROVE the connection? Nope, but you can NEVER prove any theory, you can only disprove it. With that said, the connection is far from just speculation.

I understand. It’s still speculation, a problem a good bit of popular evolutionary theory articles on specific human behavioral traits face.

 

[KitingHigh]

Is one acting racist in the this scenario?

The house next door to you is for sale. Three families look at it, each family has the exact same amount of kids you have, same ages, and same sex. The only difference is that only one of the families has the same ethnicity and religion as you and your family. The other two families are different.

When in this scenario, is it racist to naturally want the family that has same ethnicity and religion as you to move in? Or is it not racist?

Imo, I feel it’s not racist. I only believe it becomes racist if you were to not answer questions asked by the families the same, or if you were to mislead them or act cold to them in hopes they don’t move in.

Or perhaps it is a form of racism, but not a malicious form, if there is such a thing.

Thoughts?

Yes, or at least prejudice as you mentioned ethnicity and religion as opposed to race.

I'd prefer the capitalist method and simply sell the house to whomever is going to pay the most.

 

[fsu1jreed]

I understand. It’s still speculation, a problem a good bit of popular evolutionary theory articles on specific human behavioral traits face.

Okay, I can kind of agree with that.........but it's speculation that fits.

 

[DFSNOLE]

Is one acting racist in the this scenario?

The house next door to you is for sale. Three families look at it, each family has the exact same amount of kids you have, same ages, and same sex. The only difference is that only one of the families has the same ethnicity and religion as you and your family. The other two families are different.

When in this scenario, is it racist to naturally want the family that has same ethnicity and religion as you to move in? Or is it not racist?

Imo, I feel it’s not racist. I only believe it becomes racist if you were to not answer questions asked by the families the same, or if you were to mislead them or act cold to them in hopes they don’t move in.

Or perhaps it is a form of racism, but not a malicious form, if there is such a thing.

Thoughts?

I don't view that as racist. People prefer to socialize with those of like mind and interest.

 

[West Duval Nole]

There are different levels of racism. It is possible to be colorblind but not likely. Someone who is blind from birth would have to be colorblind no?

I think most people have biases more on presumed socioeconomic status than race.

Is ethnic pride or stereotyping good qualities racist? For example, Filipinos blindly pulling for say Pacquiao over any other race? Or when playing pickup basketball and 2 guys to pick from of same height and build but one black and one white, you pick the black person? Or are we referring to racism only when it applies to presumed negative traits?

 

[MIKE_G]

There are different levels of racism. It is possible to be colorblind but not likely. Someone who is blind from birth would have to be colorblind no?

I think most people have biases more on presumed socioeconomic status than race.

Is ethnic pride or stereotyping good qualities racist? For example, Filipinos blindly pulling for say Pacquiao over any other race? Or when playing pickup basketball and 2 guys to pick from of same height and build but one black and one white, you pick the black person? Or are we referring to racism only when it applies to presumed negative traits?

In a general sense, basing your opinion of someone on nothing but their racial appearance is racist. Nothing egregious, but still racist.

 

[West Duval Nole]

Is 8 ball a racist game?

 

[nynole1]

Is one acting racist in the this scenario?

The house next door to you is for sale. Three families look at it, each family has the exact same amount of kids you have, same ages, and same sex. The only difference is that only one of the families has the same ethnicity and religion as you and your family. The other two families are different.

When in this scenario, is it racist to naturally want the family that has same ethnicity and religion as you to move in? Or is it not racist?

Imo, I feel it’s not racist. I only believe it becomes racist if you were to not answer questions asked by the families the same, or if you were to mislead them or act cold to them in hopes they don’t move in.

Or perhaps it is a form of racism, but not a malicious form, if there is such a thing.

Thoughts?

Never really thought about this scenario. Now that I have, I would prefer to have someone live next door who shares my religion (if it actually means something to them, that is), irrespective of skin color. Whatever that makes me, that's what I am.

 

[FSU_UCLA]

One of my favorite quotations about race from Ta-Nehisi Coates is, “But race is the child of racism, not the father.”

Race is a social construct that developed to provide a schema and a language for our innate in-group/out-group prejudices.

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

Some people are just flat out racist and full of hate. They’re in a different category IMO.

I think the rest of us have more subtle, less intense prejudices and stereotypes. Doesn’t have to be race or ethnicity, it could be about income level, social status, education, etc. We can strive for a “colorblind” approach, but knowing that’s not truly possible the key is how we manage those negative feelings when they (hopefully) infrequently arise.

 

[KitingHigh]

Some people are just flat out racist and full of hate. They’re in a different category IMO.

I think the rest of us have more subtle, less intense prejudices and stereotypes. Doesn’t have to be race or ethnicity, it could be about income level, social status, education, etc. We can strive for a “colorblind” approach, but knowing that’s not truly possible the key is how we manage those negative feelings when they (hopefully) infrequently arise.

This.

BTW, when I mentioned colorblind, I meant that in basic terms of being indifferent to race/ethnicity (the thread was initially about racism, other biases were introduced later), not absent of any and all bias.

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

This.

BTW, when I mentioned colorblind, I meant that in basic terms of being indifferent to race/ethnicity (the thread was initially about racism, other biases were introduced later), not absent of any and all bias.

But can you truly be indifferent to race and ethnicity or do you recognize the differences and then quickly overcome any negative perceptions if and when they arise? And maybe in most cases there isn’t anything to overcome.

Maybe it’s just semantics - I guess the important thing is what our words and actions demonstrate.

Interesting discussion, thanks to DFS for letting it go.

 

[KitingHigh]

But can you truly be indifferent to race and ethnicity or do you recognize the differences and then quickly overcome any negative perceptions if and when they arise? And maybe in most cases there isn’t anything to overcome.

Maybe it’s just semantics - I guess the important thing is what our words and actions demonstrate.

Interesting discussion, thanks to DFS for letting it go.

Yes to all of it.

And yes, the bold part is the most important.

 

[Banditking]

But can you truly be indifferent to race and ethnicity or do you recognize the differences and then quickly overcome any negative perceptions if and when they arise? And maybe in most cases there isn’t anything to overcome.

Maybe it’s just semantics - I guess the important thing is what our words and actions demonstrate.

Interesting discussion, thanks to DFS for letting it go.

The issue is if we recognize people as part of our ingroup or not and how we weigh various in group out group features.

So, one might see race or cultural/ethnicity as attractive things, a positive bias. People can be attracted to differences or find a different cultural perspective a compelling addition to a group.

I’m sure many people here can give personal examples of this. One of my more attractive girlfriends was a black woman, former fashion model, and she had an md/PhD. The issue to me is about where do you put your weightings in terms of grouping. I saw her as in group because I’m an academic and she shared a lot of background with me and I found our differences to be interesting and not negatives.

Noticing differences isn’t racist.

 

[kc78]

Yes to all of it.

And yes, the bold part is the most important.

What you fail to understand is that you simply don't understand how the brain works. Most of us have no clue. Our brain is really made up of multiple brains all competing for control, and in the end after decisions are made, then our pre-frontal cortex kicks in and tries to reason and understand why we made the decision we did.

Do some reading on split brain theory (Which is freaking unreal and far more than a theory since we actually have split people's brains as we thought it was a cure and have been able to actually track what happens). Do some research into how the limbic system works and it's guiding principles of fear of the other pushing to fight or flight and how the amygdala and the anterior Cingulate Cortex both affect how those decisions are made. Hell, we also now know that we have neurons that extend all the way into our gut and the absence or increase of bacteria will also have an affect on the types of decisions we make.

As much as we like to think that we're a singular animal with full control and understanding of why we do the things we do, it simply isn't true. A closer analogy is that we are the President, an intruder runs into the room, the Secret Service runs in, swoops us out, deals with the intruder and then we have control handed back and we get to figure out why we acted the way we did, determine whether it was good or not, and then try to put in controls to make it better.

I'm not saying we don't have control over the decisions we make. There are a lot of ways that we can train those lower parts of our brain to act differently than they may be inclined to act. Dr Andrew Newberg makes an amazing case for meditating in some form on love for 30 minutes a day every day being maybe the most important thing (Along with regular exercise) that we can do for a more healthy, empathetic brain space.

But the point is that through science, we do know that every human being, in the most base portions of our brain is tribalistic and makes decisions about other human beings using a number of stimuli of which race is one (But not the only) of them. We can't escape it. Now, when we reason, we can choose to ignore race in our decision making, and that is what people who claim to be color blind are doing. But what they, and you, don't realize is that the pre-frontal cortex is just a very, very small and thin piece of your brain. And while it is powerful, it is also slow and requires a ton of energy. There are a ton of times that our brains simply turn it off and let older, quicker, more efficient portions take over.

Once we're aware of that, then we can start practicing mindfulness to try and be aware of the decisions we've made, analyze them, determine whether they were good, neutral, or negative; and try to put in plans to either reinforce those being made again or to stop them.

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

The issue is if we recognize people as part of our ingroup or not and how we weigh various in group out group features.

So, one might see race or cultural/ethnicity as attractive things, a positive bias. People can be attracted to differences or find a different cultural perspective a compelling addition to a group.

I’m sure many people here can give personal examples of this. One of my more attractive girlfriends was a black woman, former fashion model, and she had an md/PhD. The issue to me is about where do you put your weightings in terms of grouping. I saw her as in group because I’m an academic and she shared a lot of background with me and I found our differences to be interesting and not negatives.

Noticing differences isn’t racist.

Agree, but we all perceive differences in race, ethnicity, age, social status, income, age, etc etc. In other words, we are always sizing people up and reacting to what we observe, filtered through our own knowledge, beliefs and experiences. I think that’s just how we’re wired.

My point was simply that how we react to those observations is to me where we move into the racist/non-racist spectrum. You may quickly observe differences but it’s no big deal to you so you move forward with no discernible effect on your actions. I think this is as close to “colorblind” as it’s possible to get.

Or, someone with racist views may perceive these differences and react strongly and negatively based on those observations.

Many are probably in the middle somewhere.

I’m no social scientist but that makes sense to me.

 

[kc78]

Agree, but we all perceive differences in race, ethnicity, age, social status, income, age, etc etc. In other words, we are always sizing people up and reacting to what we observe, filtered through our own knowledge, beliefs and experiences. I think that’s just how we’re wired.

My point was simply that how we react to those observations is to me where we move into the racist/non-racist spectrum. You may quickly observe differences but it’s no big deal to you so you move forward with no discernible effect on your actions. I think this is as close to “colorblind” as it’s possible to get.

Or, someone with racist views may perceive these differences and react strongly and negatively based on those observations.

Many are probably in the middle somewhere.

I’m no social scientist but that makes sense to me.

Close. The problem is that almost every decision gets routed through this mechanism and we're rarely aware of it. So while I may not make a hiring decision where I looked at the gender, skin color, or nationality for example and chose not to hire them because of it. It doesn't mean that it didn't effect my decision. It may just have happened in a portion of the brain that I'm not aware is processing but influenced me anyhow. It's why I think it's so important that we really go back and use a mindfulness construct to examine many of our decisions to understand why we made them and whether there could have been a racial, gender, nationality, sexuality, or any other social construct to deny them access to something important.

When I've done that, I've learned a lot about myself things that I'm not proud to have discovered, but now that I know about them, can work to try to re-train.

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

Close. The problem is that almost every decision gets routed through this mechanism and we're rarely aware of it. So while I may not make a hiring decision where I looked at the gender, skin color, or nationality for example and chose not to hire them because of it. It doesn't mean that it didn't effect my decision. It may just have happened in a portion of the brain that I'm not aware is processing but influenced me anyhow. It's why I think it's so important that we really go back and use a mindfulness construct to examine many of our decisions to understand why we made them and whether there could have been a racial, gender, nationality, sexuality, or any other social construct to deny them access to something important.

When I've done that, I've learned a lot about myself things that I'm not proud to have discovered, but now that I know about them, can work to try to re-train.

Yeah, but then you go too far the other way. You’re ascribing a negative motive to your decisions and then trying to make up for it.

 

[FSUATT]

Is one acting racist in the this scenario?

The house next door to you is for sale. Three families look at it, each family has the exact same amount of kids you have, same ages, and same sex. The only difference is that only one of the families has the same ethnicity and religion as you and your family. The other two families are different.

When in this scenario, is it racist to naturally want the family that has same ethnicity and religion as you to move in? Or is it not racist?

Imo, I feel it’s not racist. I only believe it becomes racist if you were to not answer questions asked by the families the same, or if you were to mislead them or act cold to them in hopes they don’t move in.

Or perhaps it is a form of racism, but not a malicious form, if there is such a thing.

Thoughts?

When it comes to neighbors, I just want someone who is somewhat friendly and not too loud and obnoxious. Currently, all my nearby neighbors are white, but I rarely see or talk to most of them, even though I walk around the neighborhood almost every afternoon. I know their marital and family status, but have no clue what their religious beliefs are. Until about a year ago, a black couple lived about 5 houses from me, and he was the most friendly person on the block. He was one of the few neighbors who came by and brought food when my son passed away a few years ago. I would like to have a neighbor that I could call a friend (no matter what their ethnicity or religious beliefs), but so far, that hasn't happened (maybe it's me and my wife that are the problem).

 

[KitingHigh]

What you fail to understand is that you simply don't understand how the brain works. Most of us have no clue. Our brain is really made up of multiple brains all competing for control, and in the end after decisions are made, then our pre-frontal cortex kicks in and tries to reason and understand why we made the decision we did.

Do some reading on split brain theory (Which is freaking unreal and far more than a theory since we actually have split people's brains as we thought it was a cure and have been able to actually track what happens). Do some research into how the limbic system works and it's guiding principles of fear of the other pushing to fight or flight and how the amygdala and the anterior Cingulate Cortex both affect how those decisions are made. Hell, we also now know that we have neurons that extend all the way into our gut and the absence or increase of bacteria will also have an affect on the types of decisions we make.

As much as we like to think that we're a singular animal with full control and understanding of why we do the things we do, it simply isn't true. A closer analogy is that we are the President, an intruder runs into the room, the Secret Service runs in, swoops us out, deals with the intruder and then we have control handed back and we get to figure out why we acted the way we did, determine whether it was good or not, and then try to put in controls to make it better.

I'm not saying we don't have control over the decisions we make. There are a lot of ways that we can train those lower parts of our brain to act differently than they may be inclined to act. Dr Andrew Newberg makes an amazing case for meditating in some form on love for 30 minutes a day every day being maybe the most important thing (Along with regular exercise) that we can do for a more healthy, empathetic brain space.

But the point is that through science, we do know that every human being, in the most base portions of our brain is tribalistic and makes decisions about other human beings using a number of stimuli of which race is one (But not the only) of them. We can't escape it. Now, when we reason, we can choose to ignore race in our decision making, and that is what people who claim to be color blind are doing. But what they, and you, don't realize is that the pre-frontal cortex is just a very, very small and thin piece of your brain. And while it is powerful, it is also slow and requires a ton of energy. There are a ton of times that our brains simply turn it off and let older, quicker, more efficient portions take over.

Once we're aware of that, then we can start practicing mindfulness to try and be aware of the decisions we've made, analyze them, determine whether they were good, neutral, or negative; and try to put in plans to either reinforce those being made again or to stop them.

I'm well aware of the science, but it doesn't dispute what I've said.

Tribalism <> racism. Also, not everyone is predisposed to the behaviors common to most based on our ancestors. There are plenty of examples, the most common being related in that people natural want to be part of a group,and for most a more sizable one. People tend to follow perceived authority and even get upset that others don't, even when authority is demonstrably wrong. There are hundreds of experiment showing these things, but there are always exceptions and usually a good number of them. The same is true of racial bias.

And the complexities of the brain and our lack of knowledge and understanding of it is all the more reason to not speak in absolutes.

How about this. Let's look at an actual ongoing study on racial bias between Black and White Americans:

This article goes over the Harvard's project implicit, which attempts to determine exactly what we are discussing. While it is controversial in some ways and does show that most, 4 out of 5, have at least some degree of implicit (subconscious) bias, it also shows that 1 out of 5(18%) doesn't, and that the degree and even direction of bias can change with time and circumstance in a single person.

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-40124781

Take it for what it's worth, but it seems to be the most prominent information available on the specific subject and from a respected source.

 

[Banditking]

I'm well aware of the science, but it doesn't dispute what I've said.

Tribalism <> racism. Also, not everyone is predisposed to the behaviors common to most based on our ancestors. There are plenty of examples, the most common being related in that people natural want to be part of a group,and for most a more sizable one. People tend to follow perceived authority and even get upset that others don't, even when authority is demonstrably wrong. There are hundreds of experiment showing these things, but there are always exceptions and usually a good number of them. The same is true of racial bias.

And the complexities of the brain and our lack of knowledge and understanding of it is all the more reason to not speak in absolutes.

How about this. Let's look at an actual ongoing study on racial bias between Black and White Americans:

This article goes over the Harvard's project implicit, which attempts to determine exactly what we are discussing. While it is controversial in some ways and does show that most, 4 out of 5, have at least some degree of implicit (subconscious) bias, it also shows that 1 out of 5(18%) doesn't, and that the degree and even direction of bias can change with time and circumstance in a single person.

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-40124781

Take it for what it's worth, but it seems to be the most prominent information available on the specific subject and from a respected source.

Thus far, as far as I’m aware there is no linking of performance on the implicit bias test to action/behavior.

 

[West Duval Nole]

This article goes over the Harvard's project implicit, which attempts to determine exactly what we are discussing.

This is an aside comment which you can ignore and doesn't necessarily make this project of any less value. But Harvard more than likely discriminates against Asian Americans in their admissions for being too smart and they fear they could become the majority of accepted students.

 

[Banditking]

This is an aside comment which you can ignore and doesn't necessarily make this project of any less value. But Harvard more than likely discriminates against Asian Americans in their admissions for being too smart and they fear they could become the majority of accepted students.

Maybe. There’s a lawsuit that asserts that. And, Harvard disagrees. The Asian students, it is asserted, rank lower on “personality”. What’s not clear is how that’s scored. There are cultural differences in emphasis of certain things. It may not be racial bias and certainly it is not because they’re “too smart.”

There is a problem in academic space with some Asian cultures and “collective” work. Ie. They cheat.

 

[KitingHigh]

Thus far, as far as I’m aware there is no linking of performance on the implicit bias test to action/behavior.

True, but the argument at hand isn't about action and behavior, but ingrained subconscious racism. There are still flaws and controversy with the race IAT, but it did try to prove exactly what those arguing with me claim to be fact.

 

[KitingHigh]

This is an aside comment which you can ignore and doesn't necessarily make this project of any less value. But Harvard more than likely discriminates against Asian Americans in their admissions for being too smart and they fear they could become the majority of accepted students.

True, but I think we should keep Affirmative Action out of the thread if we want to keep it going.

 

[West Duval Nole]

And, Harvard disagrees.

Well that's a shocker. LOL!

There is a problem in academic space with some Asian cultures and “collective” work. Ie. They cheat.

I seriously doubt that will be a defense Harvard uses and your comment could be due to some implicit racial bias based on your own anecdotal experiences.

I would tend to lean towards the cultural differences that leads to this score on "personality" is because the cultural influence focuses on academic achievement rather than say sports. So I think while you may not say it is due to being "too smart", I think it comes from a concerted effort and work on the academics more so than your claim of cheating.

 

[Banditking]

Well that's a shocker. LOL!


I seriously doubt that will be a defense Harvard uses and your comment could be due to some implicit racial bias based on your own anecdotal experiences.

I would tend to lean towards the cultural differences that leads to this score on "personality" is because the cultural influence focuses on academic achievement rather than say sports. So I think while you may not say it is due to being "too smart", I think it comes from a concerted effort and work on the academics more so than your claim of cheating.

My comment could be based on my own anecdotal experiences relative to collectivist work. I can say that at my university that I earned my PhD from, we had a specific orientation for directed toward Asian students to explain the concept of Plagiarism and that collective work is not allowed. They did that because there was a massive problem with both in the Asian student body. It was explained to us that collective work was okay in some Asian cultures. I’ll note that American intellectual property is blatantly copied/counterfitted in China.

Also, there is a stereotype that is somewhat backed by data with respect to Asian cultures and scholastic emphasis to the exclusion of all else. Ie the answer to “what do you do for fun?” is frequently “nothing.” A tremendous familial push to be a dr... regardless of motivation of child. I’ve encountered this I don’t know how many times. The toll on “personality” can be strong.

 

[Banditking]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...sats-with-bootleg-tests-idUSKBN0NK06X20150429


Example.

Pretty stats. Often. Ability to match... sometimes.

 

[West Duval Nole]

Also, there is a stereotype that is somewhat backed by data with respect to Asian cultures and scholastic emphasis to the exclusion of all else. Ie the answer to “what do you do for fun?” is frequently “nothing.” A tremendous familial push to be a dr... regardless of motivation of child. I’ve encountered this I don’t know how many times. The toll on “personality” can be strong.

I don't disagree with much of what you have said. But based on my own experience the top of the top Asians (to be fair I am half Asian (Filipino) but not one of the top of the top in book smarts) which would be the ones applying to Harvard are pretty damn book smart and didn't rely on much group/collective work for their grades and achievement, so would say most of the ones in this group did not cheat for their grades or scores.

I get the copying IP etc. But I don't think that takes away from their book smarts or even necessarily intelligence. I tend to think that more takes away from their creativity. And working with quite a few people from India I see this too. Super book smart and pick up things you specifically teach, but thinking outside the box beyond what you specifically teach or provide direction on is not a strong point and can be extremely frustrating.

 

[Banditking]

I don't disagree with much of what you have said. But based on my own experience the top of the top Asians (to be fair I am half Asian (Filipino) but not one of the top of the top in book smarts) which would be the ones applying to Harvard are pretty damn book smart and didn't rely on much group/collective work for their grades and achievement, so would say most of the ones in this group did not cheat for their grades or scores.

I get the copying IP etc. But I don't think that takes away from their book smarts or even necessarily intelligence. I tend to think that more takes away from their creativity. And working with quite a few people from India I see this too. Super book smart and pick up things you specifically teach, but thinking outside the box beyond what you specifically teach or provide direction on is not a strong point and can be extremely frustrating.

Right but creativity is kind of important at the high end, yes?

Culturally American, Asians i have never had any issues with. I work with several. I’ve got a couple right now (working for me) and they’re fantastic. But, I’ve also had people stealing my work (research ideas) without crediting me, amongst other annoyances from people from China that are here as faculty or whatever. There’s also a tendency toward over stating qualifications and not actually being able to do the work. I get it. Hard to get over here and what not.

And, of course, the top of the top from China are awesome. There’s a billion people over there. Same with any other country.

I’ve got two fellows from Thailand right now; they’re really good.

But, when you’re only frames of reference are gpa and entrance exam scores, that can be and is gamed.

 

[BucaNole]

I don't see what the big deal is with racists and why there has to be some sort of witch hunt. Same thing with Nazi's, commies, gay people etc etc. Let people be free to be themselves, as long as they don't impose their will, who the hell cares? Problem with this country is there's a bunch of busy bodies telling other folk how to live.