North Korea accuses US of declaring war...

[seminole97]

Yeah and honestly there was probably little to support that either. Allegedly it was because NK was sharing nuclear info and other assistance with Iraq and Iran but I'm not sure how much of that was even true.

North Korea has been selling arms to Iran since the Iran-Iraq war.
Of particular interest is cooperation on ballistic missile tech, as well as nuclear.

When you've got China and Russia already fully up to date and ready to give you anything you can pay for under the table...

Why do you think Russia and China want to create an additional nuclear armed power on their border? It simply provides pretense for the deployment of US ABM defenses, and makes the idea of a nuclear armed Japan and South Korea something openly discussed.

I don't think there's much Lil Kim (or Biggie Kim back in the day) has to offer.

"North Korea’s export of ballistic missiles and associated materials to several countries, including Iran and Syria, and its assistance to Syria’s construction of a nuclear reactor, destroyed in 2007, illustrate its willingness to proliferate dangerous technologies."

link

 

[funksouljon]

Just my opinion, but I don't think we should be involved in NK or frankly 90%+ for where we've stuck our nose in over the past 20 years or so. All we've seemed to accomplish is destabilising the ME, losing American military personnel, killing a lot of people the great majority of which were not going to bother us, and burning through money and equipment that we could use in more important areas.

Agree with this.

 

[Noleguy06]

Agree with this.

Makes two of us.

 

[GwinnettNole]

Just my opinion, but I don't think we should be involved in NK or frankly 90%+ for where we've stuck our nose in over the past 20 years or so. All we've seemed to accomplish is destabilising the ME, losing American military personnel, killing a lot of people the great majority of which were not going to bother us, and burning through money and equipment that we could use in more important areas.

Don't get me wrong, I'm far from a dove and if I could be accused of anything it would be for being "bloody minded" because I absolutely believe the WW2 strategy of utterly destroying the enemy and then building them back AFTERWARDS has proven to be successful while our tiptoe around has only proven to create decades long, simmering destabilised areas. But neither am I one of these "chicken hawks" arguing we should be invading everyone over relatively minor disputes all while hiding behind Ponch.

No need to attack NK unless they attack first. I'd agree that too many lives have been lost over the last 16 years that we didn't need to be a part of.

 

[gwgwi]

Clinton, Bush, and Obama all said 'if you attack us we'll wipe you out'...nothing different than what POTUS said. It's a fact that if they attack they're history.

 

[FSUTribe76]

North Korea has been selling arms to Iran since the Iran-Iraq war.
Of particular interest is cooperation on ballistic missile tech, as well as nuclear.



Why do you think Russia and China want to create an additional nuclear armed power on their border? It simply provides pretense for the deployment of US ABM defenses, and makes the idea of a nuclear armed Japan and South Korea something openly discussed.



"North Korea’s export of ballistic missiles and associated materials to several countries, including Iran and Syria, and its assistance to Syria’s construction of a nuclear reactor, destroyed in 2007, illustrate its willingness to proliferate dangerous technologies."

link

I'm not sure how true those reports are. Most of the "proliferation" episodes are tied to Green Pine and other companies that deal with North Korea (hence the tie) but are situated in and staffed mainly if not exclusively by the Chinese. And North Korean nuclear scientists have an "exchange program" with China and Russia just like Iran. But the majority if not entirety of "North Korean" sales are really Chinese sales. Even the most recent Lithium 6 deals said in PR and in our intelligence briefing said to be "North Korea" are in fact Green Pine i.e. China according to the UN.

I have zero direct knowledge of whether our reports are true or the UNs, but they can actually both be "true". In other words it could be the Chinese acting in concert with North Korea. But my main point is even if we risk war with North Korea, I don't think that will slow down proliferation for even a minute.

And frankly there's probably a lot of secret nukes already in the hands of alleged non-nuclear powers as the last number I saw said that 32 miniaturised Russian nukes went missing and I never saw anything saying they were found.

 

[F4Gary]

North Korea has been selling arms to Iran since the Iran-Iraq war.
Of particular interest is cooperation on ballistic missile tech, as well as nuclear.



Why do you think Russia and China want to create an additional nuclear armed power on their border? It simply provides pretense for the deployment of US ABM defenses, and makes the idea of a nuclear armed Japan and South Korea something openly discussed.



"North Korea’s export of ballistic missiles and associated materials to several countries, including Iran and Syria, and its assistance to Syria’s construction of a nuclear reactor, destroyed in 2007, illustrate its willingness to proliferate dangerous technologies."

link

I think NK and Iran are definitely sharing their nuclear weapons knowledge.

 

[seminole97]

I'm not sure how true those reports are.

That's a completely normal reaction.
Link
"...new research, recently published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, examined a slippery way by which people get away from facts that contradict their beliefs."

 

[FSUTribe76]

That's a completely normal reaction.
Link
"...new research, recently published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, examined a slippery way by which people get away from facts that contradict their beliefs."

OR and here's a thought...the neutral investigators aren't finding the same connections as our less than unbiased sources.

 

[FSUTribe76]

I think NK and Iran are definitely sharing their nuclear weapons knowledge.

Even if so...who cares. Anyone with the right resources are going to get it eventually from Russia and China. Eventually we're going to have everyone who wants it to have it. The good news is that we're probably only 5 or so from actually useful directed energy defense systems (i.e. "Lasers") deployed in useable platforms. Less if we actually made it a priority.

 

[Urban Cryer]

I hate to break it to you all, but we've technically been at war with them since 1950.

By the way, I laugh when people say we need to negotiate with them, yeah, negotiate with a dude that assasinates his military leadership with anti aircraft canons. LOL.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

I hate to break it to you all, but we've technically been at war with them since 1950.

By the way, I laugh when people say we need to negotiate with them, yeah, negotiate with a dude that assasinates his military leadership with anti aircraft canons. LOL.

how would you suggest we deal with them?

also, he's a despicable character, but we've negotiated with more than a few over the years, why draw the line at him?

 

[Urban Cryer]

how would you suggest we deal with them?

also, he's a despicable character, but we've negotiated with more than a few over the years, why draw the line at him?

That is correct, and it hasn't worked. How would I deal with them? I would not allow him to build a nuclear weapon capable of reaching the US mainland. If he did, then I would take out his capability to do so. I think a fight with them would be rather quick, as it should be.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

That is correct, and it hasn't worked. How would I deal with them? I would not allow him to build a nuclear weapon capable of reaching the US mainland. If he did, then I would take out his capability to do so. I think a fight with them would be rather quick, as it should be.

You do realize that fight would likely cost the lives of more than a million innocent South Koreans and maybe a similar number of Japanese - allies we protect.

 

[Urban Cryer]

You do realize that fight would likely cost the lives of more than a million innocent South Koreans and maybe a similar number of Japanese - allies we protect.

Well it all depends! There's a lot we can do really fast to neutralize those threats.

 

[seminole97]

OR and here's a thought...the neutral investigators aren't finding the same connections as our less than unbiased sources.

But you believe proven liar James Clapper over NSA whistleblowers like William Binney regarding Wikileaks, or do we only look for the 'unbiased sources' that we already agree with?

 

[ReliableOstrich]

But you believe proven liar James Clapper over NSA whistleblowers like William Binney regarding Wikileaks, or do we only look for the 'unbiased sources' that we already agree with?

I think we're wandering a bit off topic here.

Back to the premise of proliferation, within the context of this thread, it's likely a moot point. NK has its technology.

The real question is would they use it for any other reason than an eminent existential threat to either the nation or its leadership?

I'd bet they would not.

I also bet they would not export the technology to other nations or non-state actors. They've busted their ass for a couple decades to get into the nuclear big boy's club, now that they've got a seat at the table, they're not going to auction off new seats for bottom dollar to groups led by people crazier than their guy. It would just dilute the power and influence they've worked so hard to earn.

Kim Jung Un is a heinous murderer but I do not think he suffers from a lack of strategic understanding of the world.

At this point, just pat him on the head, say "alright, you've got the nukes. here are the rules of nuke club. you don't nuke anyone (cept for that time we did it to japan). you don't share your nukes (cept for how we lent ours out to 5 non-nuclear NATO nations). you don't start a conflict with another nuclear nation or one of it's pals (cept for when russia annexed crimea). enjoy your toy you'll never get to use and all the new pressures that come with being a nuclear state."

 

[rjw615]

Didn't NK declare that Seth Rogan movie a while back an act of war?

 

[DanC78]

I think we're wandering a bit off topic here.

Back to the premise of proliferation, within the context of this thread, it's likely a moot point. NK has its technology.

The real question is would they use it for any other reason than an eminent existential threat to either the nation or its leadership?

I'd bet they would not.

I also bet they would not export the technology to other nations or non-state actors. They've busted their ass for a couple decades to get into the nuclear big boy's club, now that they've got a seat at the table, they're not going to auction off new seats for bottom dollar to groups led by people crazier than their guy. It would just dilute the power and influence they've worked so hard to earn.

Kim Jung Un is a heinous murderer but I do not think he suffers from a lack of strategic understanding of the world.

At this point, just pat him on the head, say "alright, you've got the nukes. here are the rules of nuke club. you don't nuke anyone (cept for that time we did it to japan). you don't share your nukes (cept for how we lent ours out to 5 non-nuclear NATO nations). you don't start a conflict with another nuclear nation or one of it's pals (cept for when russia annexed crimea). enjoy your toy you'll never get to use and all the new pressures that come with being a nuclear state."

I don't have an opinion on how to handle NK. There are too many factors to consider and information that our intelligence team has that we aren't privy too.

However; we do know enough about KJU to know he's bat shi crazy.

My point, while I don't know how one should handle, the above seems silly. Patting him on the head and welcoming him to the club it's not in the least bit ideal to me.

It's the same argument as gun control here in the states. While most people with them are NOT insane, those who are insane with mental problems are probably at some point going to use the gun in a less than ideal way, like shoot up innocent people at a night club.

Ignoring the problem, not a good idea IMO.

But again, this is a very tricky topic. Going in to NK and shooting the place up seems equally dumb, there has to an option somewhere in between.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

I don't have an opinion on how to handle NK. There are too many factors to consider and information that our intelligence team has that we aren't privy too.

However; we do know enough about KJU to know he's bat shi crazy.

My point, while I don't know how one should handle, the above seems silly. Patting him on the head and welcoming him to the club it's not in the least bit ideal to me.

It's the same argument as gun control here in the states. While most people with them are NOT insane, those who are insane with mental problems are probably at some point going to use the gun in a less than ideal way, like shoot up innocent people at a night club.

Ignoring the problem, not a good idea IMO.

But again, this is a very tricky topic. Going in to NK and shooting the place up seems equally dumb, there has to an option somewhere in between.

Agree it's not ideal. But NK is a nuclear state now, that cannot be undone.
What's left to do? Attack and risk the lives of millions of innocent South Koreans and Japanese (along with our service men and women stationed in the area)?

Again the big question here is would NK use (or export) their nukes in a situation that is not an existential risk to their sovereignty or the life of Kim Jung Un?

My belief, without having access to intelligence docs, is no, they would not.

As such, until proven otherwise, I can't be in favor of provoking NK or heightening the conflict as that appears to be a self-fulfilling prophecy that will end in millions of deaths and global economic meltdown. <<< That is not ideal.

 

[DanC78]

Agree it's not ideal. But NK is a nuclear state now, that cannot be undone.
What's left to do? Attack and risk the lives of millions of innocent South Koreans and Japanese (along with our service men and women stationed in the area)?

Again the big question here is would NK use (or export) their nukes in a situation that is not an existential risk to their sovereignty or the life of Kim Jung Un?

My belief, without having access to intelligence docs, is no, they would not.

As such, until proven otherwise, I can't be in favor of provoking NK or heightening the conflict as that appears to be a self-fulfilling prophecy that will end in millions of deaths and global economic meltdown. <<< That is not ideal.

Yeah, without information, I do not agree that we attack NK, and we DEFINITELY do not attack with nuclear weapons.

Where we differ is that I don't trust KJU. I don't know what he is capable of, he's crazy. That whole place is crazy. Look what they did to that poor kid who simply took a poster off the wall.

He's not a stable guy, and he HATES America.

Sticky situation.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

Yeah, without information, I do not agree that we attack NK, and we DEFINITELY do not attack with nuclear weapons.

Where we differ is that I don't trust KJU. I don't know what he is capable of, he's crazy. That whole place is crazy. Look what they did to that poor kid who simply took a poster off the wall.

He's not a stable guy, and he HATES America.

Sticky situation.

This is where I wonder if there's an information / propaganda gap.

He's no doubt a brutal dictator who'll do anything to stay in power. But is he crazy? Crazy enough to make a decision that almost certainly would result in him losing power (likely by way of the US nuking the peninsula). I just don't think so.

Look, I'm not saying he's 100% in his right mind, but I'm just saying he may not be the man-child, nitwit, eccentric, delusional, psychopath we've all been led to believe. If he were, I really don't think he'd still be in power, he would have screwed it up already.

He knows, with nearly 100% certainty that if he were to deploy or export his nukes, he'd be looking a US ICBM right in the face -- his desire to stay in power is maybe the one quality we can depend on.

The interesting parallel here is the citizens of NK have likely been led to believe all of the above about us. That we're all crazy, we have a state-run police force that haphazardly kills black folks, that god is angry at us so he keeps sending us hurricanes, that our president is a social media addict. Framed the right way (and without context) we too look kinda crazy -- that's the art of propaganda.

 

[cmanole]

Yeah, without information, I do not agree that we attack NK, and we DEFINITELY do not attack with nuclear weapons.

Where we differ is that I don't trust KJU. I don't know what he is capable of, he's crazy. That whole place is crazy. Look what they did to that poor kid who simply took a poster off the wall.

He's not a stable guy, and he HATES America.

Sticky situation.

He's not the only guy in this fray that is crazy...

 

[ericram]

Didn't NK declare that Seth Rogan movie a while back an act of war?

well to be fair it was terrible!

 

[ReliableOstrich]

well to be fair it was terrible!

KJU did Rogen a favor withall that free publicity he got it.

 

[DanC78]

This is where I wonder if there's an

He's not the only guy in this fray that is crazy...

Cman, we all know your feelings towards our leadership. That's not the discussion. This is about NK, KJU and why do they have nuclear weapons. He has them for a reason. There is a possibility he has them because he likes to collect them, but there could also be other motives.

No one knows the answers unfortunately. It's a scary and sticky situation imo.

 

[FSUTribe76]

The interesting parallel here is the citizens of NK have likely been led to believe all of the above about us. That we're all crazy, we have a state-run police force that haphazardly kills black folks, that god is angry at us so he keeps sending us hurricanes, that our president is a social media addict.

Wait...so you're saying Lil Kim is telling his people the truth about us? That's terrible!

 

[cmanole]

Cman, we all know your feelings towards our leadership. That's not the discussion. This is about NK, KJU and why do they have nuclear weapons. He has them for a reason. There is a possibility he has them because he likes to collect them, but there could also be other motives.

No one knows the answers unfortunately. It's a scary and sticky situation imo.

I wouldn't exactly call it leadership...

 

[seminole97]

Wait...so you're saying Lil Kim is telling his people the truth about us? That's terrible!

I remember reading years ago that the Norks ran clips of COPS on state run TV to show people what life in the US is really like...