proof of vaccination or COVID-19 test to attend game

[Dhersh]

Seems pretty well reasoned. I do recall how odd it seemed that there was such a reversal on whether these masks work. Fauci was adamant they didn’t abs that was consistent with experience and studies at the time. Then suddenly it all changed…

I noticed it too, and it took time for me to understand why they changed their stance. At first everyone wanted to wear masks to stop themselves from catching the virus, but those who would know immediately came out and said masks are ineffective. That was and still is the case because masks don't shield our eyes and because it doesn't completely stop us from breathing in the virus. But then they found that it reduces the rate of transmission because, if we have a mask on, viral particles don't disperse into the air around us as easily when we breathe, talk, cough, sneeze, etc.

It has never been "I wear a mask to protect myself." It has always been "I wear a mask to protect you from me."

 

[AllNoles]

Yeah, not buying it. If the entire medical community just figured out how to look at things from both transmission and defense, then they don't deserve our respect.

Masks are the worst thing in this whole debacle, well after shutdowns. They don't do much if anything, except they create this silly divide and false senses of security. It's like when I see a family out and half have masks and half don't. The ones wearing it clearly intend to "be safe" but the reality is they are going home with all the unmasked folks so it's stupid. Same with wearing masks by the ear, or holding them below the nose, or continuing to touch surfaces and then the mask (don't even get me started on the idea of "reversible" masks people wear to match clothes). Mask are nothing more than a message of compliance.

I think the vaccines are different. I still thnk it's a choice, but the numbers pretty clearly show they mitigate harm from getting it. The reality is if I have a 1/10,000 chance of dying from it and vax makes that 1/100,000 or even 1/1M, then why would I not get better odds? Let me ask it this way: if you could do something little to increase your chances of winning the lottery 10-100X, you would. Every day. Here the only "cost" is an injection that if anything poses less risk that you getting Covid.

We need to DROP social distancing and shut downs and masks and go in on educating folks into mass vaccinations.

 

[SteveT1]

Masks are speech. That’s an issue for any govt mandate on them. The vaccine I’m not as convinced as you are, but open to getting it if more nuanced data is made available and I have time to sit down and run through any differential treatment/results of no shot vs. 1 shot vs. 2 shots but not 14 days vs. fully vaxxed vs. fully vaxxed + booster. May be asking a lot. But that’s what it would take for me to consider the jab.

 

[SteveT1]

Lumping 1 and 2 shot but less than 14 days in with totally unvaccinated numbers is disingenuous. No idea if there’s any correlation. Also, how are they counting vaccinated deaths? Is it the same as unvaccinated? Probably not unless within that 14day window… but then it’s an unvaccinated death.

 

[GbrNole]

Yeah, not buying it. If the entire medical community just figured out how to look at things from both transmission and defense, then they don't deserve our respect.

Masks are the worst thing in this whole debacle, well after shutdowns. They don't do much if anything, except they create this silly divide and false senses of security. It's like when I see a family out and half have masks and half don't. The ones wearing it clearly intend to "be safe" but the reality is they are going home with all the unmasked folks so it's stupid. Same with wearing masks by the ear, or holding them below the nose, or continuing to touch surfaces and then the mask (don't even get me started on the idea of "reversible" masks people wear to match clothes). Mask are nothing more than a message of compliance.

I think the vaccines are different. I still thnk it's a choice, but the numbers pretty clearly show they mitigate harm from getting it. The reality is if I have a 1/10,000 chance of dying from it and vax makes that 1/100,000 or even 1/1M, then why would I not get better odds? Let me ask it this way: if you could do something little to increase your chances of winning the lottery 10-100X, you would. Every day. Here the only "cost" is an injection that if anything poses less risk that you getting Covid.

We need to DROP social distancing and shut downs and masks and go in on educating folks into mass vaccinations.

i agree with a lot of this but it's also where the current data points get very murky. there are many positives that have occurred but then also a lot of things that leave you scratching your head.

for example, before the vaccine approximately 80% of all COVID related deaths occurred in the 65+ age group. That age group is the most highly vaccinated population in the US and they now account for about 65% of all deaths. An 18.8% reduction. The same age group made up about 13% of overall case positives before the vaccine, this is now down to 11%. A 15.4% reduction. Progress. Brilliant.

The 50-64 age group is the next most highly vaccinated population in the US. Death rate has increased and they have absorbed nearly the entirety of the 18.8% reduction in deaths seen in those 65+. At the same time their share of case positive rate is basically unchanged. WTF?

The 40-49 age group is middle of the road vaccinated and the death rate is up just very slightly. It's definitely something to watch. The case positive rate is unchanged. The death rate under 40 is basically unchanged, the most significant difference here is that the case positive rate is up a couple of percentage points for those under 12.

it becomes difficult to pinpoint things when the data is cloaked by definition. when these things are recorded elsewhere in the world we know how many cases had no vaccine, how many had one dose, two doses, or had reached the point to be considered fully vaccinated. it further dilutes the data when recorded deaths for COVID are probable and not lab confirmed as happens solely in the US.

both of my kids are over 21 but if they were still under 18 i'd have a very, very hard time justifying that they should be vaccinated. my parents and relatives 55 or older though is an entirely opposite scenario.

 

[Dhersh]

@AllNoles I don't think anyone said it was perfect. In fact, everyone acknowledges its far from perfect, but that doesn't make what I said less true. Don't take it from me, look at the quotes from the article:

• They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus.
• During normal day-to-day activities facemasks do not provide protection from respiratory viruses, such as COVID-19 and do not need to be worn by staff.
• Surgical masks were designed to keep medical personnel from inadvertently infecting patients’ wounds

All of that suggests that it does not protect the mask wearer. Mask don't stop the spread. They reduce the likelihood of spread from people who are already infected. And when many people are asymptomatic, it became the only defense since they didn't know they were sick. Before vaccines that is all we had to at least try to prevent additional infections. In unvaccinated people, and with the increase of resistive variants, vaccinated as well, it is one of a few things we can do to help. No one like wearing a mask, but that doesn't necessarily mean everyone should discount the benefits. And no, I'm not saying everyone needs to wear a mask all the time.

 

[PopsNole]

Masks are speech. That’s an issue for any govt mandate on them. The vaccine I’m not as convinced as you are, but open to getting it if more nuanced data is made available and I have time to sit down and run through any differential treatment/results of no shot vs. 1 shot vs. 2 shots but not 14 days vs. fully vaxxed vs. fully vaxxed + booster. May be asking a lot. But that’s what it would take for me to consider the jab.

I disagree that wearing a mask is a freedom of speech matter that is protected. A mask does not limit your speech. Just like requiring I wear a shirt into a restaurant of if I had to go to a court room is not a limit on what I can say. Even if it arguably is the government has the power to limit freedoms for safety and health reasons. Prince v. Massachusetts is an example. Jacobson v. Massachusetts also held us a Mass statute requiring someone to be vaccinated against small pox.

 

[mjpwooo]

@AllNoles I don't think anyone said it was perfect. In fact, everyone acknowledges its far from perfect, but that doesn't make what I said less true. Don't take it from me, look at the quotes from the article:

• They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus.
• During normal day-to-day activities facemasks do not provide protection from respiratory viruses, such as COVID-19 and do not need to be worn by staff.
• Surgical masks were designed to keep medical personnel from inadvertently infecting patients’ wounds

All of that suggests that it does not protect the mask wearer. Mask don't stop the spread. They reduce the likelihood of spread from people who are already infected. And when many people are asymptomatic, it became the only defense since they didn't know they were sick. Before vaccines that is all we had to at least try to prevent additional infections. In unvaccinated people, and with the increase of resistive variants, vaccinated as well, it is one of a few things we can do to help. No one like wearing a mask, but that doesn't necessarily mean everyone should discount the benefits. And no, I'm not saying everyone needs to wear a mask all the time.

Dhersh, first thank you for the individual messages.

Second, if masks protect me spreading to you, we're never going to NOT be able to stop wearing them. Bc logic says they stop the spread of covid, flu, etc. So, the wearing will never stop. Unacceptable, in my opinion.

 

[Dhersh]

Dhersh, first thank you for the individual messages.

Second, if masks protect me spreading to you, we're never going to NOT be able to stop wearing them. Bc logic says they stop the spread of covid, flu, etc. So, the wearing will never stop. Unacceptable, in my opinion.

Right masks are not the solution to ending the pandemic. The solution is immunity - preferably from vaccines to reduce variants and to keep hospitals from being overrun. Masks can only do so much, and do not make people immune.

 

[flmom777]

I could see it being one of two things. People and companies started producing masks to make a buck off the pandemic. Doesn't mean they were any good. I bought a novelty mask one time and had trouble talking/breathing because it was too tight. Stick to medical grade masks and this isn't an issue.

Otherwise it could be something similar to claustrophobia which causes the body to react negatively.

I have COPD. The mask I was wearing is one that I found to be the easiest to breath through. I have not been receiving treatment for almost six years because of no insurance. I am now starting to get treated and have an appointment with a pulmonary specialist next week.

Now more to the point, I refuse to wear a mask because I can’t breath. I’m so tired of so many people saying it isn’t a big deal and to just wear a mask. After those appointment I now know for a fact that the mask is not a good thing for me in any way.

 

[SteveT1]

I disagree that wearing a mask is a freedom of speech matter that is protected. A mask does not limit your speech. Just like requiring I wear a shirt into a restaurant of if I had to go to a court room is not a limit on what I can say. Even if it arguably is the government has the power to limit freedoms for safety and health reasons. Prince v. Massachusetts is an example. Jacobson v. Massachusetts also held us a Mass statute requiring someone to be vaccinated against small pox.

Jacobson v. Massachusetts permitted a nominal fine against someone who refused the vaccination. It did NOT hold that Jacobson could be held down and jabbed.

As for masks = speech... they are if wearing one or not wearing one conveys a message. Masks mandates are a form of compelled speech. Government gets away with some forms of compelled speech, like warning labels on packs of cigarettes, but not something that you wear to make others "feel better" even though you're not sick

 

[SteveT1]

As for overwhelming hospitals…https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/covidnet/covid19_3.html

 

[PopsNole]

Jacobson v. Massachusetts permitted a nominal fine against someone who refused the vaccination. It did NOT hold that Jacobson could be held down and jabbed.

As for masks = speech... they are if wearing one or not wearing one conveys a message. Masks mandates are a form of compelled speech. Government gets away with some forms of compelled speech, like warning labels on packs of cigarettes, but not something that you wear to make others "feel better" even though you're not sick

Of course they aren't going to hold you down but they can issue penalties and punishment for not complying. Glad you agree there is precedent saying that the government can mandate vaccinations. Having you wear a mask if not mandating speech. Just like my wife have to wear a mask while performing surgery is not compelled speech or a lawyer having to wear pants into the courtroom and being held in contempt of court is not compelled speech.

 

[goldmom]

Jacobson v. Massachusetts permitted a nominal fine against someone who refused the vaccination. It did NOT hold that Jacobson could be held down and jabbed.

As for masks = speech... they are if wearing one or not wearing one conveys a message. Masks mandates are a form of compelled speech. Government gets away with some forms of compelled speech, like warning labels on packs of cigarettes, but not something that you wear to make others "feel better" even though you're not sick

But how do you know I'M not sick?

 

[goldmom]

As for overwhelming hospitals…https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/covidnet/covid19_3.html

The only "overwhelming" going on is the hospitals reporting that the overwhelming number of COVID admits are unvaccinated. 96-98% across the board.
I guess the new sound of freedom is a ventilator keeping these people alive.

 

[PopsNole]

The only "overwhelming" going on is the hospitals reporting that the overwhelming number of COVID admits are unvaccinated. 96-98% across the board.
I guess the new sound of freedom is a ventilator keeping these people alive.

Ventilated for freedom! Who are the real heroes the troops or unvaxxed/un-masked freedom fighters?

 

[goldmom]

Ventilated for freedom! Who are the real heroes the troops or unvaxxed/un-masked freedom fighters?

Casualties being reported from the front are high. Some have given eyewitness accounts of the dying making last statements that they woulda and shoulda and if only they coulda...😒

 

[RDCNoles]

Jack Daniels kills Covid. But you guys do whatever you want.

Only if you can stomach it, hard pass for me. Much better options available

 

[AllNoles]

Jacobson v. Massachusetts permitted a nominal fine against someone who refused the vaccination. It did NOT hold that Jacobson could be held down and jabbed.

As for masks = speech... they are if wearing one or not wearing one conveys a message. Masks mandates are a form of compelled speech. Government gets away with some forms of compelled speech, like warning labels on packs of cigarettes, but not something that you wear to make others "feel better" even though you're not sick

I don’t think the courts would consider this a speech issue because the masks are about alleged physical safety. The incidental “speech” of being able to oppose or not look compliant won’t change that. In my opinion.

 

[SteveT1]

I don’t think the courts would consider this a speech issue because the masks are about alleged physical safety. The incidental “speech” of being able to oppose or not look compliant won’t change that. In my opinion.

I think that’s the right argument against it being a speech issue. Souter’s concurring opinion in Hill v. Colorado would take that position. I don’t think when you see someone with or without a mask, the communicated message is “compliant” or “non compliant.” Otherwise that’s the message with any dress code mandate, such as saggy pants, hats, head scarves, etc.
I think mandates are a bit too broad in scope by design, perhaps to communicate a message (I think Fauci admitted as much during a senate hearing, but don’t hold me to that). By requiring a healthy person who may be immune from the virus to wear a mask in a public venue (particularly outdoors) to prevent them from spreading the virus (because masks aren’t effective at preventing them from getting the virus), a broad mandate would cut against a public health argument. But yeah, have to convince a judge it’s speech, then attack the regulation (most are susceptible to attack). There seem to be paths away from rational basis review, but the threshold issue, as you point out, is whether forcing people to wear a mask is compelled speech or not speech at all. Tough to say that it’s never speech. Wearing one while driving alone says a lot.

 

[PopsNole]

I think that’s the right argument against it being a speech issue. Souter’s concurring opinion in Hill v. Colorado would take that position. I don’t think when you see someone with or without a mask, the communicated message is “compliant” or “non compliant.” Otherwise that’s the message with any dress code mandate, such as saggy pants, hats, head scarves, etc.
I think mandates are a bit too broad in scope by design, perhaps to communicate a message (I think Fauci admitted as much during a senate hearing, but don’t hold me to that). By requiring a healthy person who may be immune from the virus to wear a mask in a public venue (particularly outdoors) to prevent them from spreading the virus (because masks aren’t effective at preventing them from getting the virus), a broad mandate would cut against a public health argument. But yeah, have to convince a judge it’s speech, then attack the regulation (most are susceptible to attack). There seem to be paths away from rational basis review, but the threshold issue, as you point out, is whether forcing people to wear a mask is compelled speech or not speech at all. Tough to say that it’s never speech. Wearing one while driving alone says a lot.

They are effective at decreasing the spread of the virus from someone with it whether asymptomatic or symptomatic.

 

[goldmom]

Equating masks with a dress code would be funny if not ludicrous.
Do baggy pants prevent the spread of COVID? 🤔

 

[AllNoles]

Well it’s unlikely masks do much either. So there’s that.

 

[MagNoleA]

Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

 

[AllNoles]

Hawaii crisis too. They love masks.

 

[flmom777]

I don’t think the courts would consider this a speech issue because the masks are about alleged physical safety. The incidental “speech” of being able to oppose or not look compliant won’t change that. In my opinion.

What do you think courts would rule if a person with hearing difficulties would sue because he is unable to communicate. Reading lips is not possible when people are wearing masks. I didn’t realize how much I relied on lip reading until all the cashiers started wearing masks. I am not deaf and don’t have hearing aids, though maybe I should see about that. I got to the point that when the cashier would ask me something I simply ignored them because I didn’t know what they were saying. I could hear sound but I couldn’t decipher what was said.

 

[Dhersh]

Social distancing and good hygiene are still the best mitigation efforts 👍

 

[fsufool]

I noticed it too, and it took time for me to understand why they changed their stance. At first everyone wanted to wear masks to stop themselves from catching the virus, but those who would know immediately came out and said masks are ineffective. That was and still is the case because masks don't shield our eyes and because it doesn't completely stop us from breathing in the virus. But then they found that it reduces the rate of transmission because, if we have a mask on, viral particles don't disperse into the air around us as easily when we breathe, talk, cough, sneeze, etc.

It has never been "I wear a mask to protect myself." It has always been "I wear a mask to protect you from me."

The article provided a comprehensive meta-analysis of the current state of studies. There are still no studies, sans one, The USS Roosevelt, that provides any evidence of protection for others from mask wearers. And that was a cohort study that relied on self-reporting......both huge weaknesses. Actual RCT studies have been done and there is no evidence of mask wearing decreasing spread from the mask wearer to others.

 

[AllNoles]

What do you think courts would rule if a person with hearing difficulties would sue because he is unable to communicate. Reading lips is not possible when people are wearing masks. I didn’t realize how much I relied on lip reading until all the cashiers started wearing masks. I am not deaf and don’t have hearing aids, though maybe I should see about that. I got to the point that when the cashier would ask me something I simply ignored them because I didn’t know what they were saying. I could hear sound but I couldn’t decipher what was said.

Don’t know but that is a whole other issue. I think courts have broad power to approve vaccine requirements. It’s likely a rational relation test, but rules will be to deny services, not require people to get them directly. This is why it’s important to have leaders who don’t go that far.

 

[Dhersh]

The article provided a comprehensive meta-analysis of the current state of studies. There are still no studies, sans one, The USS Roosevelt, that provides any evidence of protection for others from mask wearers. And that was a cohort study that relied on self-reporting......both huge weaknesses. Actual RCT studies have been done and there is no evidence of mask wearing decreasing spread from the mask wearer to others.

Got links? I'd love to see the data.

 

[AllNoles]

Social distancing and good hygiene are still the best mitigation efforts 👍

Not sure distancing is relevant in the big picture unless you mean Australia/NZ lockdowns, which also don’t work in the long run.

 

[Dhersh]

Not sure distancing is relevant in the big picture unless you mean Australia/NZ lockdowns, which also don’t work in the long run.

Nope. I meant that the farther away you are, physically, from an infected person, the less likely you are to become infected under normal circumstances.

 

[GbrNole]

Hawaii crisis too. They love masks.

View embedded media

i can't possibly imagine why Hawaii won't provide the age data of those testing positive. I'm sure it has nothing to do with their 65+ population basically being 100% vaccinated.

 

[AllNoles]

i can't possibly imagine why Hawaii won't provide the age data of those testing positive. I'm sure it has nothing to do with their 65+ population basically being 100% vaccinated.

Almost the whole population is vaxxed.

And i disagree about the social distancing issue. Especially inside. There’s no science behind the 6 foot and similar rules.

 

[fsufool]

Got links? I'd love to see the data.

Read the posted article. It has all the RCTs along with its 1st named researcher. The CDC posts the studies it thinks are important and classifies them. All there for you to peruse.

 

[fsufool]

Almost the whole population is vaxxed.

And i disagree about the social distancing issue. Especially inside. There’s no science behind the 6 foot and similar rules.

Most of the studies I saw said maximum benefit at 1 meter (3.3Ft).

 

[AllNoles]

Most of the studies I saw said maximum benefit at 1 meter (3.3Ft).

I think that’s WHO rec. The simple reality though is the entire rule set is more feel good than science. It’s a way to make people feel they’re making a difference. They aren’t.

 

[Dhersh]

Almost the whole population is vaxxed.

And i disagree about the social distancing issue. Especially inside. There’s no science behind the 6 foot and similar rules.

58% of those age 18-64 are fully vaxed in HI

Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) - Symptoms and causes

www.mayoclinic.org

 

[AllNoles]

Ah ok. I’d read they were one of the most highly vaxxed populations. I did know how that compares to other places. Whats Florida? Almost all I know are vaxxed. Easily 75% or more. And my people are crazy.

That said I don’t want to confuse this tweets purpose. HI has had a full mask mandate and all kinds of rules and it’s blowing up too. As we move forward I think we will have you focus on vaccines abs treatments abs realize all the other stuff was a waste of time.

 

[GbrNole]

Most of the studies I saw said maximum benefit at 1 meter (3.3Ft).

i've seen different studies. some of them, kind of like the various distances that mark the Karman Line of space, are just simply used because they are easy to remember. The WHO says 3 feet minimum. The CDC says 6 feet. Maybe the CDC just grabbed their guidelines used for people who suffer from cystic fibrosis?