When are we going to get the requisite "Did 'lack of compromise start the Civil War'" thread? Which is one of the better ways I've heard someone eloquently put the war was not about slavery. Those threads were always fun back in the day when the racists revisionist historians of the LR and RC would make the war (of Northern Aggression? heh.) about state's rights and not about the institution of slavery. This is how stupid stuff perpetuates.
So is anything happening on the news today?
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Umm... well I think you may have just started it here. While I agree with you, I also don't want this thread locked so hopefully it doesn't take that left turn.
We have such a large country that embraces individuality and freedom. In addition to population and geographic variation, it does pose the question, how big is too big? China is larger and more populated therefore SHOULD have the same issues, but they don't embrace freedom like we do.
I also doubt a state would legitimately try to leave. It would have to be someone who could function on their own, meaning they are a giver. Cali, Texas, WA+OR combo, etc. It would never be the takers in the deep south. They'd have to do it as a group and we saw how that went last time. The takers do need to get it together, but how do you change that? Looking at who "they" are, there are several similarities, low- limited education, high crime, weak independent economy.
I've typed and deleted this several times.
What is this “takers in the south” thing? Did I miss a link earlier in the thread showing how awesome California is and how worthless the south is (isn’t Florida the south?)?
In other news Jimbos staff is still employed, as is Butch Jones. I hear about the later more, due to region, and it’s quite hilarious
In other news Jimbos staff is still employed, as is Butch Jones. I hear about the later more, due to region, and it’s quite hilarious
Is thinking both sides fought for different reasons still a thing?
Lincoln was clear in inaugural on his intent to invade if necessary to keep collecting taxes. Playing the same role as Rajoy in Spain.
The South was bailing because they felt in the very near future they wouldn't be able to federally protect slavery under the Congressional framework.
If you'll fight to leave so you can do X, but I fight to keep you so I can do Y, we're still gonna fight even if it's for different reasons. They're not mutually exclusive.
I think William Sherman's letter to his brother, Feb 1, 1861, is enlightening. The 'first' concern in allowing the South to peaceably leave would be revenue, and with free trade in New Orleans the threat that represents to eastern commerce.
You guys are overthinking the CA port and military issue. We would keep the ports and bases/forts like we do with Gitmo, South Korea, Germany, etc.
In terms of how dependent the state is on Federal money, I think this is the best chart. It’s this years analysis of Federal funds received as part of the overall state revenue.
The South is clearly the biggest suckers on the federal teat.
I couldn’t quickly find a chart showing more modern figures but I did see that the current average state received $1.22 in Federal funding for every $1.00 taxed (the difference being made up from loans not tax dollars) while California only receives $0.99 back for taxable dollars. Those figures are from last year.
What's more modern than 2017? So what your saying is we would be fine without Cali?
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What's more modern than 2017? So what your saying is we would be fine without Cali?[/QUOTE]
I meant a chart showing the amount returned per dollar taxed. The latest chart I could find for that was 2005.
Good Q. Low population so any money back seems large? Lots of public lands that need support? Not a lot of high revenue taxed industry but has a large footprint needing infrastructure support?
In terms of how dependent the state is on Federal money, I think this is the best chart. It’s this years analysis of Federal funds received as part of the overall state revenue.
The South is clearly the biggest suckers on the federal teat.
I couldn’t quickly find a chart showing more modern figures but I did see that the current average state received $1.22 in Federal funding for every $1.00 taxed (the difference being made up from loans not tax dollars) while California only receives $0.99 back for taxable dollars. Those figures are from last year.
Interesting how many of you look at this. So sure Cali gets low funding from the feds when it comes to whatever measureable you want to use. However there are so many more things Cali gets that doesn't count as aid. How about college funding and grants, what about the federal laws enforcement presence; not just true LE, but parks, fish and game etc. Hey I hope Cali does leave with the policies they have in place and will only expand on the place will be Northern Mexico in less than 2 years. By the way all the middle class, high earners and really rich; how many of them leave when they realize they will be paying the bill for Cali's ideas. What about international multi billion dollar companies; how many of them say you know we are not sure if this is a good place to be. As far as defense if you think the US is going to just foot the bill after Cali leaves your crazy. Unless there is a strategic reason I would expect the federal govt. to say, hey you wanted out take care of yourself or pay for it from us. Again I do love the talk about states leaving the union and it doesn't matter which one; all of the them except for a few are so dependent on uncle Sam; and uncle Sam made it this way.
Just curious but you think the Feds are going to be like oh your leaving; ok just keep all those assets we built?
I think the premise of this thread is that they find a way to leave without some military confrontation, the outcome of the alternative seems to be a given so the entire thread would be a moot point.
Actually I think you're way off the premise, with all due respect. Considering yesterday's top news stories, I suspect that it was started to begin an entirely different conversation (until deletion).
Fair enough, I should re-state, that this appears to be the premise of the significant portion of the thread's deflection.
Military confrontation is the least of everyone's concerns. The issue is that there are federal assets in Cali and they don't just get to keep them. This the biggest question and it as if seems people think that Cali just says hey we are out and everything stays the same. My guess is this whole secession thing is a political tool for some Cali clown to get elected somewhere and the clowns in Cali will fall hook line and sinker for it. Any state leaving the federal government is a disaster for that state; unless they do in blocks of numerous states. The federal government has become so intertwined in all state business that leaving would become a disaster. Here is one for you I am a retired disabled veteran who lives in Cali; how do I change my disability, how do I dispute a claim? Sure you can say log into an account, or make a phone call; but now the person with the issue is not a citizen and how the feds put fees on things like that will crus people in any state that tries to leave; not to mention the amount of people each state will have to hire and pay to keep up with this type of thing. Again please any state; especially Cali leave it will be the most epic fail ever.
So I introduced the subject as 1) fully relevant due to news in Spain and 2) to avoid the real bigly news story from Monday and 3) it is something that rears its ugly head with varying degree of noise (see Cali and Texas). It was fully half-baked in the world of what if scenarios but it does legitimately happen in the world so who is to say it wouldn't happen? There are think tanks that what if themselves all day long on these types of scenarios both locally and globally. 4 pages and we haven't been shut down yet, fully diverted from you-know-whose thinly veiled nudge nudge in the first post.
I personally don't think that too many states would be allowed to leave without some form of confrontation.
And Ranger makes a good point on how it would almost HAVE to be resisted due to the loss of assets. But what if Cali offered to make payments to reimburse, or better yet, offered to provide discounted trade deals to pay off the "debt" to the US? Esp if it would allow the 49 to ramp up agri production.
Many say the next wars will be sparked by water rights/access. I would have thought the Colorado watershed would be an issue, but perhaps not based on how much other sources Cali has.
Exactly, because the hypothetical of a war between the US and California would in my mind simply lead to the destruction of California. But I’m also the one who scoffs at the suggestion that rednecks with rifles could somehow beat the US military when that’s fronted as a rationale for second amendment arguments.
Actually, all that is accounted for. CA gets less in return. It's simple accounting. Sorry you don't like it, but it's true.
The assets stay because you can't move them. Just like when the US leaves countries like Iraq. We just leave everything we can't haul out behind.
As far as defense of course the US foots the bill - just like they do for Canada. If CA doesn't provide an army who will defend the western waters? No one? Of course not, the US will still patrol it. Don't be obtuse.
As for the ridiculous comments about wanting to elect a clown - that already happened. I already pointed out who is driving the CA secession bid - a moron living in Russia. He's trying to get a bunch of other idiots to further divide the country by buying into "getting rid of those damned liberals". I see it's working.
Contrary to other posts, you would probably be correct about the Colorado watershed. You just need to widen the box and not limit yourself to AG and/or not limit the analysis to a percentage of the total, but the mechanics of the system.
The Colorado is a critical source of irrigation and urban water for southern California, providing between 55 and 65 percent of the total supply.
I'm sure Cali could do without that water.
I keep seeing this. The river is part of the border. Where do you assume it's going to go?
I'm assuming that in this day and age no one would risk military action. Lots and lots of legal action, but no military action.
Still, let me repeat myself for the 3rd time in this thread - most of this talk about secession is driven by Moscow looking to sow further division. They're doing it all across the globe right now and they're not even bothering to hide it knowing that most people won't bother to notice.
Still, let me repeat myself for the 3rd time in this thread - most of this talk about secession is driven by Moscow looking to sow further division. They're doing it all across the globe right now and they're not even bothering to hide it knowing that most people won't bother to notice.
Apparently no longer an issue as N Korea has basically nuked themselves...
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I suspect Arizona would expand and keep the Imperial Dam, but that's just a guess.
..Or do like many arid Middle Eastern countries do and install (very expensive) desalination plants along the coast.
Well, that would have very little effect as the colorado river aqueduct exits the river a couple hundred miles upstream of that.
Still, the point remains - unless you plan on rewriting the boundaries how would you keep the water from CA? You can't just turn it off above and the river runs along hundreds of miles of the border.
It's just one of those dumb things that gets repeated. Like CA is a desert state and the rest of the US has the controls to the spigot.
You gotta take a look at SW states as well as mostly northern western ones as well. North Dakota stands out to the positive due to fracking, which I predict is unsustainable and wretched for ground water supplies. The Deep South gets poor ratings for a reason, but don’t pretend they are alone.
Oh sure, why not just use that to cover many of the bases too. "Arizona would expand to cover San Diego County."
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