lebron celebrating this like he just closed out a big time series. lol.
that said, he is the best in the game and i cannot hate on him, his talents, or character. so i can just be annoyed that the team i was rooting for lost.
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that said, he is the best in the game and i cannot hate on him, his talents, or character. so i can just be annoyed that the team i was rooting for lost.
It’s just crazy that Lebron has to do EVERYTHING. I’ve never seen a player that has to lead his team in points rebounds assists blocks and probably guard the opponents best player... just to have a chance to win.
It’s criminal that he won’t win the MVP this year
It’s criminal that he won’t win the MVP this year
Ohio1,
Agreed, its by far Lebrons best season, and the plus minus with Lebron resting vs Harden is comical. Oh well, still expecting K Love or anyone to hit a shot this series and look like a dangerous team. Supporting cavs 5 games in are among worst in NBA history.
If Lebron had been drafted by Lakers or Spurs i do wonder how many titles he’d have, 7-8 is my guess.
LeBron brought a lot of this on his own. He controls who is sign and traded. He could have better teammates but he is an awful GM and drives away guys like Kyrie and Thomas.
He has no one to blame but himself. When they don’t make the finals he will get all the excuses made for him and then he will bail to the Lakers.
He has no one to blame but himself. When they don’t make the finals he will get all the excuses made for him and then he will bail to the Lakers.
I would argue that LeBron has never had a TRUE #2 player by his side for a full season.. Wade’s knees were always causing him to miss games. Kyrie couldn’t stay healthy either. However when they beat GS, Kyrie put up some numbers as well and hit that big three..
I’m just talking about for a full 82 game season plus post season, he’s never had a sidekick who is a true #2 who you can depend on night in a night out to help carry the load.
I remember game 7 against the spurs, Bosh put up a goose egg in the scoring column. Did Rodman ever give Jordan a zero rebound night? Or Pippen put up a zero scoring night?
Whenever LeBron has an off night, they lose. They don’t have that other guy that can give you 30-35 point night to bail you out.
Unlike any other superstar in the league
Nolebra,
You sound like Skip Bayless.
Lebron had a jv team for 8 years in Cleveland, did he do that on his own?
He had worst GM in bball who allowed Kyrie to go for nothing, was that on Lebron too? is he the first player in history making trades for his team? laughable. Lebron has mistakes and has an ego on court, but his Cavs supprting casts mostly have been atrocious or hurt. His best team was actually the first year vs Warriors when Love and Kyrie watched the Finals and Lebron nearly pulled it off. If Healthy imho that Cavs team wins 2 straight and Durant never becomes the biggest tool in history of sports.
If you don't think Dwayne Wade was a true #2, Smh. It's rare for players to play 82 games these days. Lebron did it for first time in his career this year, but that's not the norm.
I don't understand Lebron apologists. No player in the game has as much control over moves his team makes or who coaches the team.
And he wins, what more do you want? Not every championship team is going to be Jordan Pippen or Kobe Shaq. Those are outliers. When you look at what is happening in other places, why are players not breaking down doors to go play for Lebron? I hate that GSW have 4 crazy good players on one loaded team, and a great coach, but their players have chosen to take the money they have to stay there.
With Lebron I would argue he's never had a great coach and that's the reason the players around him have not delivered. He's had decent talent around him, but they tend to shrink once they get on the same team with him. There's a lot to be said about drafting talent and developing them. That hasn't happened around Lebron either, thought I blame coaching for that.
Besides Wade and Bosch, great players have not gone out of their way to join Lebron either. You could also say that the "Super team" fad started with the Lebron and Heat trio thing and that is now a norm to get teams loaded with signed talent rather than drafted talent.
Completely agree LeBron while he has had some below average teams has done this to himself. He runs players off, coaches off and honestly it seems as if maybe he isn't a very good team mate. Sure the guy can play ball but it appears as if he also thinks he is the greatest bball mind in the league too. By the way if going to LA is his plan hen he is showing you he is not very smart. In LA he won't make it out of the second round.
I will give you that his agency has made some bad deals with teams. See the tristian Thompson deal..
But I also think it’s way over blown how much “control” Lebron has on making moves.
With Wade being a true number 2, being available to suit up plays a huge part in that. Wade simply couldn’t stay healthy. LeBron might have the worst luck when it comes to his key teammates staying healthy.
Bosh missed playoff games with an abdominal injury. Wade and his knees. Love missed the entire post season lebrons first year back. Kyrie missed all but one of the finals game. Love has been in and out of the lineup his whole stint in Cleveland.
I’ll give you that he hasn’t played under a good coach.
Kyrie left because he wanted his own team, to be "the man". That's a Kyrie issue not a Lebron issue.
There's an exaggerated narrative that Lebron is somehow running the front office or running off players. Not sure where it's coming from but by and large it's just piling on a guy, who maybe the best ever, who happens to be addicted to a town and team with historically terrible ownership.
There's an exaggerated narrative that Lebron is somehow running the front office or running off players. Not sure where it's coming from but by and large it's just piling on a guy, who maybe the best ever, who happens to be addicted to a town and team with historically terrible ownership.
It’s valid to criticize LeBron for the Tristan Thompson deal and slightly less for JR Smith. Other than that how exactly did he run Kyrie off? Kyrie is completely delusional as a human being. He wanted to be “the guy” yet he took more shots per game last year than LeBron while having a higher usage rate. He’s always hurt and when he was Cleveland’s best player they were absolutely dreadful. The Cavs completely botched that trade which has left them with a whole bunch of role players. I doubt I’ll ever see a player as good as LeBron. He makes passes every single game that no other player in the league makes. Just insane cross court stuff to find guys wide open for 3s.
If I'm Bayless than you are Stephen A. Smith.
His first stint in Cleveland he didnt have much talent but to say he has never had a true #2 is laughable. He made a super friends team with Wade and Bosh. One who was a Finals MVP and the other who was a perennial All-Star plus they had Ray Allen. Even with that he only went 2-2 in the Finals. He's had good players around him.
My issue with Lebron is he benefits from both sides of the coin. When he wins its only because of him and when they lose its not because of him.
He's an all-timer, Top 3 player all-time and likely the best or second best player in the game today but the excuses made for him kill me.
Re: both sides of the coin, not necessarily true.
Yesterday, they one because of him. Period. You can credit Korver w/ a hot night, but Lebron one that game. This year's Cavs team is rubbish without Lebron.
However, the titles in Miami and in CLE, very few would say were exclusively because of Lebron. Kyrie balled out in the finals they won. The Miami team had a very effective Wade and a pretty good set of role players as well.
I'll always wonder how Lebron would have fared with a great coach. Spo was a rookie, the Cavs have had a revolving door, Lue is 1st timer also. Meanwhile the Spurs have benefited from an all-time great, the Lakers had Phil, Heat (pre LBJ) had Riley. I suppose there's some excuse making in there, but can't ignore the number of championships won btwn 2000 and now by HoF coaches.
LeBron proves each game he’s the goat. All the rest is talking head nonsense.
Lebron isnt better than Jordan. He'll likely go down the as second best.
That's a valid opinion. I def will not be arguing who's #1 vs #2.
Outside of 6 rings. What makes him better? Shooting? Defense? Rebounding? Passing?
It’s crazy that basketball is the only sport that has to have a debate over who is the greatest ever. Every other sport you just have all time greats. And no one compares because it’s impossible.
But in basketball, people get so defensive if someone thinks Jordan isn’t the goat. Or if Lebron isn’t the goat. Or whoever their argument is for
But in basketball, people get so defensive if someone thinks Jordan isn’t the goat. Or if Lebron isn’t the goat. Or whoever their argument is for
That's part of the fun of basketball. Wondering if Shaq could beat Kobe one-on-one.
Can't wonder the same in football, baseball, or soccer.
If that’s the case, then bill Russell ends the convo
And I think Robert Horry has 7. So he’s better than Lebron and mj too
Better scorer? Lebron is going to go down as the leagues all time leading scorer.
He is going to go down as the leagues all time leading scorer and top 5 in rebounds and assists.
Performance in the finals, I’m too lazy to research. But Lebron lead both teams in scoring rebounds assists and blocks. And the guy guarding him wins the finals mvp.
Like I said, it’s an endless debate that’s pointless in arguing because there is no time machine.
I need Nick Wright from FS1 to spew his Lebron career stats to show how dominant he’s been over Jordan in speaking strictly about stats.
But Jordan defenders revert back to 6-0 in the finals. Beating an old lakers team. John Stockton and the mighty SuperSonics. And can’t forget the beat down he put on old man Drexler and the Trail Blazers
How fragile are Lebron fans that they have to argue he's either the best 1st best player or 2nd best player?
While I am a Lebron fan.. I also dislike how Jordan is made out to be this mythical feature who is untouchable. And that it’s blasphemy that anyone be mentioned in the same breath as one Michael Jeffrey Jordan.
There are a ton of nba legends who can have an argument for goat.
Just my thoughts
The fact you don’t know the starts yourself means you should stay out of the debate.
Old Drexler? He was 30 years old and the second best guard in the league in ‘92. Did you even watch basketball then?
LeBron is going to play a ton more games than Jordan did in the Finals and regular season. In fact he’s done both and his ppg aren’t as good as MJ. That’s what I mean by scorer. Per game scoring not playing just more games. He’s played more games than MJ already and doesn’t touch some of his records.
I’m tired of Lebron fan boys impressed by a guy 3-5 in the Finals, who doesn’t play against a ton of centers like Jordan did who clogged the land and who teams couldn’t play illegal defense.
If Jordan played by today’s rules he’d average 40 a game. I’ve seen both play in their prime and it’s no contest. I’m 38, a lot closer
Lol I’m 48 and you’re high. Go back and watch video of those great centers you remember so fondly- they’re mostly gangly skinny white dudes who had a hard time walking and chewing gum.
Tell me about the time Jordan averaged a triple double in the finals. Tell me how his stats in his 15th year were... Lebron is still scoring 40 pts a game and carrying his team.
So many Jordan fans were kids when he was playing and remember him as Superman.
There are plenty of arguments about who the goat is - but Jordan fans are the worst. The guy played for a hall of fame coach and had strong support every year but all they remember is the shots he made in a few early rounds against the Knicks.
Tell me about the time Jordan averaged a triple double in the finals. Tell me how his stats in his 15th year were... Lebron is still scoring 40 pts a game and carrying his team.
So many Jordan fans were kids when he was playing and remember him as Superman.
There are plenty of arguments about who the goat is - but Jordan fans are the worst. The guy played for a hall of fame coach and had strong support every year but all they remember is the shots he made in a few early rounds against the Knicks.
I'm more of a Lebron fan than a Jordan fan (I Hated the Bulls growing up) , but I can appreciate what he was now that he's not playing. Both sides have apologists and I would say Lebron is probably a better person off the court than MJ (Jordan was by all accounts a jerk).
That said, Lebron is great, but Jordan was a better scorer than Lebron and that is a fact. Lebron is more physical, bigger, and more multi dimensional, but overall not as great a scorer. Lebron is held back by his so so ft shooting and erratic 3 pt shooting.
Keeping it simple, Jordan played in 13 playoffs, same as Lebron is at right now. Here's their career playoff averages. Given, Lebron has played in 220 playoff games over that time vs 179 for Jordan.
Jordan:
33.4 ppg
6.4 rpg
5.7 apg
2.1 spg
0.9 bpg
82.8% fta
33.2% 3pa
Lebron
28.5 ppg
8.9 rpg
6.9 apg
1.8 spg
1.0 bpg
74.4% fta
32.9% 3pa
Lebron's highest scoring avg in a playoff is 35.3 ppg. Jordan had 3 seasons higher than that (43.7, 36.7, 35.1).
As for the centers, it is a valid point that the game is different now. Can you name the star dominant centers in the game right now?
During Jordan era, it was Patrick Ewing, Shaq, David Robinson, Hakeem Olajawon, Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe Mutombo. Yes, there were plenty of scrubs but there are certainly plenty in the league right now.
As for Jordan's strong support, not sure why John Paxton, Horace Grant, Bill Cartwright, Will Purdue, are considered strong support. He had a team that played well together, but certainly not stars that could stand on their own. Rodman was good but one dimensional. Pippen was a sidekick. Toni Kukoc was another supporting player around 12 ppg. But as I said before, the coaching made the difference on how to utilize the whole team. Lebron has never had that benefit and being that he's left his team twice, he could have easily gone to a team with a better coach. I get that he valued coming back to Ohio, but he also short changed his opportunities doing so.
I will also add that I think the NBA is more competitive now than it was back in the 90s. While the top teams are generally the same year in and year out, the quality of play has gone up the last 6 years or so. Future looks good for the league.
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Man what an awful post. Jordan played without a HOF center and played in an era where there was close to a dozen who played. Your memory must be fading.
Jordan didnt have the luxury of getting to the rim without a Center clogging the lane like Lebron does. The first three titles Jordan won he didnt have an all-star cast. In '91 Pippen was a one time all-star. He made his teammates better.
He was also mentally tougher than Lebron and didnt wilt in the Finals like he has at times.
Jordan was the ultimate competitor. I can't think of a big moment where he came up small. Even in his early years when he had a terrible supporting cast, he would carry his team beyond reasonable expectations. Ask Larry Bird about the 63 points he scored against arguably the greatest NBA team ever, the '86 Celtics. Lebron had a reputation for shrinking on the big stage well into his career. It took him a while to grow into the stone cold killer Jordan was from day one.
You can’t think of a moment where he didn’t come up big? This is my point when it comes to the mythical creature he’s thought of being
‘93
3/18 in an ECF W against the knicks
8/24 in an ECF W close out against the knicks
19/43 L against PHX
‘96
9/22 against Seattle - team still won
6/19 vs Seattle - team still won
5/19 close out win against Seattle. Team still won
‘97
11/31 close out game against Miami in ECF
Also had
11/27
9/22 performances against Utah. Also was 15/35 in their series clinching win
‘98
9/25 in a close out W against miami in the ECF
Also put up a 9/26 and 13/29 shooting nights against Utah.
There were PLENTY of games in his playoff career where he had off nights. And didn’t come up big.. or teammates helped out for the W.
I’m not saying lebron hasn’t had bad games either. But let’s not pretend Jordan didn’t get help
There's plenty of ways to parse the stats, but when I'm talking about big games, I'm talking clutch shots. Games that came down to the wire and the best player needs to make a play. Something Lebron has become great at, later in his career. Jordan was even better when the game was on the line than he was when it wasn't.
Lebron is that guy now for sure. But he had a reputation of shrinking from the big shot when he was otherwise the clear go-to guy for his team. Early in his career. But we're talking greatest of all time:
14) For his career, Jordan was 9-of-18 shooting in the playoffs on potential game-tying or go-ahead shots in the final 24 seconds of the fourth quarter or overtime. He was a perfect 3-of-3 on such shots in games when his team faced elimination and 4-of-7 when his team had an opportunity to clinch.
http://www.espn.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/114587/23-stats-for-no-23-michael-jordan
Lebron is that guy now for sure. But he had a reputation of shrinking from the big shot when he was otherwise the clear go-to guy for his team. Early in his career. But we're talking greatest of all time:
14) For his career, Jordan was 9-of-18 shooting in the playoffs on potential game-tying or go-ahead shots in the final 24 seconds of the fourth quarter or overtime. He was a perfect 3-of-3 on such shots in games when his team faced elimination and 4-of-7 when his team had an opportunity to clinch.
http://www.espn.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/114587/23-stats-for-no-23-michael-jordan
I have to stop for a second and look at a few things. There's some misconception by certain folks above that Lebron never had benefit of a "True #2" or as good a supporting cast as MJ had.
You might be surprised to know that Scottie Pippen's average stats were pretty comparable to Dwayne Wade when they played with MJ/LJ during their time together.
Interesting facts:
During the 90's Bulls runs, did you know that the Bulls only had one season where more than 3 players averaged double digits? Here's the list of championship seasons playoff averages for Bulls, Heat, and Cavs for top 4 players on each playoffs.
Bulls
1990-91:
Jordan: 31.1
Pippen: 21.6
Horace Grant: 13.3
Bill Cartwright: 9.6
1991-92:
Jordan: 34.5
Pippen: 19.5
Horace Grant: 11.3
John Paxson: 7.9
1992-93:
Jordan: 35.1
Pippen: 20.1
BJ Armstrong: 11.4
Horace Grant: 10.7
1995-96:
Jordan: 30.7
Pippen: 16.9
Toni Kukoc: 10.8
Ron Harper: 8.8
1996-97:
Jordan: 31.1
Pippen: 19.2
Toni Kukoc: 7.9
Ron Harper: 7.5
1997-98:
Jordan: 32.4
Pippen: 16.8
Toni Kukoc: 13.1
Ron Harper: 6.7
Heat
2011-12:
Lebron: 30.3
Wade: 22.8
Bosh: 14.0
Chalmers: 11.3
2012-13:
Lebron: 25.9
Wade: 15.9
Bosh: 12.1
Ray Allen: 10.2
Cavs
2015-16:
Lebron: 26.3
Kyrie: 25.2
Kevin Love: 14.7
JR Smith: 11.5
More support below, here are the top scorers that averaged over 10 ppm from MJ's playoff career, as well as Lebron's stints with the Cavs and Heat. Do the research for yourself, easy enough to look at the data via: https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/
Has every team by year, and can look at data by season or career.
Bottom line, if you want to argue coaching or intangibles, sure. But if you look at the numbers, the facts do not support that "Lebron didn't have help" and that he did it all by himself and carried the team.
Jordan's mystique has made folks revise history a bit and remember his band of merry men into something they weren't. Nothing against Luc Longley and Bill Cartwright, but it was the way the teams played more than the players themselves. Bulls did more with less than the teams Lebron was on.
You might be surprised to know that Scottie Pippen's average stats were pretty comparable to Dwayne Wade when they played with MJ/LJ during their time together.
Interesting facts:
During the 90's Bulls runs, did you know that the Bulls only had one season where more than 3 players averaged double digits? Here's the list of championship seasons playoff averages for Bulls, Heat, and Cavs for top 4 players on each playoffs.
Bulls
1990-91:
Jordan: 31.1
Pippen: 21.6
Horace Grant: 13.3
Bill Cartwright: 9.6
1991-92:
Jordan: 34.5
Pippen: 19.5
Horace Grant: 11.3
John Paxson: 7.9
1992-93:
Jordan: 35.1
Pippen: 20.1
BJ Armstrong: 11.4
Horace Grant: 10.7
1995-96:
Jordan: 30.7
Pippen: 16.9
Toni Kukoc: 10.8
Ron Harper: 8.8
1996-97:
Jordan: 31.1
Pippen: 19.2
Toni Kukoc: 7.9
Ron Harper: 7.5
1997-98:
Jordan: 32.4
Pippen: 16.8
Toni Kukoc: 13.1
Ron Harper: 6.7
Heat
2011-12:
Lebron: 30.3
Wade: 22.8
Bosh: 14.0
Chalmers: 11.3
2012-13:
Lebron: 25.9
Wade: 15.9
Bosh: 12.1
Ray Allen: 10.2
Cavs
2015-16:
Lebron: 26.3
Kyrie: 25.2
Kevin Love: 14.7
JR Smith: 11.5
More support below, here are the top scorers that averaged over 10 ppm from MJ's playoff career, as well as Lebron's stints with the Cavs and Heat. Do the research for yourself, easy enough to look at the data via: https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/
Has every team by year, and can look at data by season or career.
Bottom line, if you want to argue coaching or intangibles, sure. But if you look at the numbers, the facts do not support that "Lebron didn't have help" and that he did it all by himself and carried the team.
Jordan's mystique has made folks revise history a bit and remember his band of merry men into something they weren't. Nothing against Luc Longley and Bill Cartwright, but it was the way the teams played more than the players themselves. Bulls did more with less than the teams Lebron was on.
Look at my post above. Took me a while.
Takes some luck to win championships. See Robert Horry's history, Ray Allen's corner 3, etc. Comes down to coaching sometimes, and sometimes it comes down to luck. That's a bad angle to take about relying on scrubs. Just because they made their shots doesn't mean they weren't just role players or "scrubs". They happened to step up in the moment, could have easily missed those shots.
If you want to go game for game with examples, I don't have time for that. Not sure anyone does. But if you want to look at the numbers, which is easy to do, I'll do that.
I'll add that I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm a Spurs fan, not an MJ or LJ fan. Some of the arguments above are just absurd and that's what I'm hoping to dispel.
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