2018 NBA Playoffs-

[BelemNole]

Your post makes a great point - nearly 30 years later and many of the names from Jordan’s first finals team are still names you remember- Scotty Pippin, Horace Grant, Bill Cartwright, BJ Armstrong, he’ll even John Paxton.

Now...name me a player from the 2006 Cavs they lost to the spurs other than LeBron. I’ll give you a minute to google...

 

[dmm5157]

Your post makes a great point - nearly 30 years later and many of the names from Jordan’s first finals team are still names you remember- Scotty Pippin, Horace Grant, Bill Cartwright, BJ Armstrong, he’ll even John Paxton.

Now...name me a player from the 2006 Cavs they lost to the spurs other than LeBron. I’ll give you a minute to google...

I give Lebron a pass for that 2006 run and everything before his stint with Miami. That's the team that drafted him and that was a horribly run team and the front office made some bad moves letting go of Boozer and Ricky Davis. That's why I said Lebron going back to the Cavs later on is on him, as that was his choice to rejoin.


BTW only NBA purists and old timers will remember Cartwright, Horace Grant, BJ Armstrong and Paxson (hell, you even mispelled Paxson's name in your post).

The only players most folks remember from Bulls runs are Jordan, Pippen and Rodman because those were the faces of most of the rings. Rodman was only there for 2nd run though.

 

[dmm5157]

Your post makes a great point - nearly 30 years later and many of the names from Jordan’s first finals team are still names you remember- Scotty Pippin, Horace Grant, Bill Cartwright, BJ Armstrong, he’ll even John Paxton.

Now...name me a player from the 2006 Cavs they lost to the spurs other than LeBron. I’ll give you a minute to google...

I'll go one step further and say that folks don't remember the players from the losers. Without Googling, who was on the 2011 Mavs championship team besides Dirk Nowitzki?

 

[BelemNole]

The point remains he dragged a bunch of never-was to the finals. Lots of “superstars” never got that far surrounded by far more talent.

 

[amicusnole]

Forget stats a moment. I despised Jordan when he played. But I've never seen a player at any level who could will his team to victory like that. Over and over, and there was nothing you could do about it. He had an intangible competitive instinct that put him on another level. LeBron is a great player, but he lacks that intangible competitive will MJ had, and I don't see how anyone who watched both of these guys compete in the Finals could put LeBron over MJ.

 

[Ohio1nole]

I have to stop for a second and look at a few things. There's some misconception by certain folks above that Lebron never had benefit of a "True #2" or as good a supporting cast as MJ had.

You might be surprised to know that Scottie Pippen's average stats were pretty comparable to Dwayne Wade when they played with MJ/LJ during their time together.


Interesting facts:

During the 90's Bulls runs, did you know that the Bulls only had one season where more than 3 players averaged double digits? Here's the list of championship seasons playoff averages for Bulls, Heat, and Cavs for top 4 players on each playoffs.

Bulls
1990-91:
Jordan: 31.1
Pippen: 21.6
Horace Grant: 13.3
Bill Cartwright: 9.6

1991-92:
Jordan: 34.5
Pippen: 19.5
Horace Grant: 11.3
John Paxson: 7.9

1992-93:
Jordan: 35.1
Pippen: 20.1
BJ Armstrong: 11.4
Horace Grant: 10.7

1995-96:
Jordan: 30.7
Pippen: 16.9
Toni Kukoc: 10.8
Ron Harper: 8.8

1996-97:
Jordan: 31.1
Pippen: 19.2
Toni Kukoc: 7.9
Ron Harper: 7.5

1997-98:
Jordan: 32.4
Pippen: 16.8
Toni Kukoc: 13.1
Ron Harper: 6.7


Heat
2011-12:
Lebron: 30.3
Wade: 22.8
Bosh: 14.0
Chalmers: 11.3

2012-13:
Lebron: 25.9
Wade: 15.9
Bosh: 12.1
Ray Allen: 10.2

Cavs
2015-16:
Lebron: 26.3
Kyrie: 25.2
Kevin Love: 14.7
JR Smith: 11.5

More support below, here are the top scorers that averaged over 10 ppm from MJ's playoff career, as well as Lebron's stints with the Cavs and Heat. Do the research for yourself, easy enough to look at the data via: https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/

Has every team by year, and can look at data by season or career.

Bottom line, if you want to argue coaching or intangibles, sure. But if you look at the numbers, the facts do not support that "Lebron didn't have help" and that he did it all by himself and carried the team.

Jordan's mystique has made folks revise history a bit and remember his band of merry men into something they weren't. Nothing against Luc Longley and Bill Cartwright, but it was the way the teams played more than the players themselves. Bulls did more with less than the teams Lebron was on.

Great numbers. I’m at work so I just skimmed thru your post. And I’ll look at it deeper later on. My quick thought on a rebuttal would be, have those numbers been adjusted for pace of play? Like a per 100 possessions type of thing.

The game is played differently now and scores are a lot higher.

I’d also like to look at Pippens injury history compared to Kyrie and wade. And love for that matter

 

[BelemNole]

Forget stats a moment. I despised Jordan when he played. But I've never seen a player at any level who could will his team to victory like that. Over and over, and there was nothing you could do about it. He had an intangible competitive instinct that put him on another level. LeBron is a great player, but he lacks that intangible competitive will MJ had, and I don't see how anyone who watched both of these guys compete in the Finals could put LeBron over MJ.

Someone didn’t watch the finals 3 years ago when Irving and Love were out injured and Lebron willed that team to six games and had a lead in the third quarter before his tank finally ran dry.

 

[Ohio1nole]

I'll go one step further and say that folks don't remember the players from the losers. Without Googling, who was on the 2011 Mavs championship team besides Dirk Nowitzki?

That's the series I don't give LeBron a pass for.. His performance was unbelievably average. Something was up. All of the other Finals series he played great. Mainly as the vegas underdog. Your Spurs teams I think were favorites both years they played when he was in Miami? At least one of the years they were.

But I remember Jason Terry, JJ Borea, and Deshawn Stevenson being on that squad.. Maybe Tyson Chandler? Other than that I have no idea.

 

[Nolebra Kai]

Great numbers. I’m at work so I just skimmed thru your post. And I’ll look at it deeper later on. My quick thought on a rebuttal would be, have those numbers been adjusted for pace of play? Like a per 100 possessions type of thing.

The game is played differently now and scores are a lot higher.

I’d also like to look at Pippens injury history compared to Kyrie and wade. And love for that matter

In the '98 Finals Pippen's back was in ruins and he was 50% of the player he normally was and Jordan took out two HOFers on their home court to win it.

 

[BelemNole]

That's the series I don't give LeBron a pass for.. His performance was unbelievably average. Something was up. All of the other Finals series he played great. Mainly as the vegas underdog. Your Spurs teams I think were favorites both years they played when he was in Miami? At least one of the years they were.

But I remember Jason Terry, JJ Borea, and Deshawn Stevenson being on that squad.. Maybe Tyson Chandler? Other than that I have no idea.

Jason Kidd finally got his ring on that mavs team.

 

[dmm5157]

Great numbers. I’m at work so I just skimmed thru your post. And I’ll look at it deeper later on. My quick thought on a rebuttal would be, have those numbers been adjusted for pace of play? Like a per 100 possessions type of thing.

The game is played differently now and scores are a lot higher.

I’d also like to look at Pippens injury history compared to Kyrie and wade. And love for that matter

I did not, but it's not easily possible to do that as they don't provide the number of possessions to create an accurate comparison. I took the raw data and was able to adjust the averages I provided to encompass player performance only during the years those teams played together.

If you want to see the top scoring players for the years that I listed above (each championship season), see below (Avg per 100 possessions). I'm not sure it does what you were intended it to show. PER is probably a better method than per 100 possessions.

Also, I showed each of the same scoring average players rather than sorting by highest avg per 100 possessions, as some were obviously heavily slanted because of minimal minutes (like Jordan McRae from 2016 Cavs team has an avg of 119.1 pts per 100 possessions because he only played 4 minutes and scored 4 pts).

Adjusting for 100 possessions makes Jordan's scoring look all that much more impressive. Lebon's numbers never touched 40 points per 100 possessions during his championship seasons.

 

[dmm5157]

But I remember Jason Terry, JJ Borea, and Deshawn Stevenson being on that squad.. Maybe Tyson Chandler? Other than that I have no idea.

Would you consider that 2011 Mavs team studs, compared to what Miami had? They had a great run that year, but that team was pretty rag-tag, other than Dirk.


My only point is I'm not sure why we give certain folks passes and others not. If one wins, it's "He lead them to the wins". And if he doesn't, "It wasn't his fault, he couldn't do it all alone. He didn't have the help that other teams did". That will always bug me, as that's just part of the game. So are injuries. They happen, it affects teams every single year. It's not isolated to one player, our personal biases get placed in when we remember certain things over others.

That's why I like to let stats speak for themselves and get rid of the personal memories and bias.

 

[Ohio1nole]

Would you consider that 2011 Mavs team studs, compared to what Miami had? They had a great run that year, but that team was pretty rag-tag, other than Dirk.


My only point is I'm not sure why we give certain folks passes and others not. If one wins, it's "He lead them to the wins". And if he doesn't, "It wasn't his fault, he couldn't do it all alone. He didn't have the help that other teams did". That will always bug me, as that's just part of the game. So are injuries. They happen, it affects teams every single year. It's not isolated to one player, our personal biases get placed in when we remember certain things over others.

That's why I like to let stats speak for themselves and get rid of the personal memories and bias.

Miami has zero excuses for losing that series. They were easily the better team

 

[Ohio1nole]

This is my point exactly. Thru 3 quarters, Lebron is the only one on double figures scoring wise.. that is unbelievable.

Lebron might want to throw this game 7 and get a nice off season to rest.

This squad has zero chance of winning the finals.

 

[NoleinATL]

This should be an interesting game 7 back in Cleveland

 

[Nolebra Kai]

Dmm5157 can you check how many deciding Round 1 Game 6’s Jordan lost by 30+ Points in his prime?

I mean he never had to face the likes of One time All Star Oladipo, future old timers game representative Lance Stephenson and a 22 year old Junior Sabonis......

 

[Ohio1nole]

Dmm5157 can you check how many deciding Round 1 Game 6’s Jordan lost by 30+ Points in his prime?

I mean he never had to face the likes of One time All Star Oladipo, future old timers game representative Lance Stephenson and a 22 year old Junior Sabonis......

 

[NoleinATL]

Donovan Mitchell is such an exciting rookie, playing great in this series

 

[NoleinATL]

Westbrook is an example of great talent, not a great player

 

[DFSNOLE]

Dmm5157 can you check how many deciding Round 1 Game 6’s Jordan lost by 30+ Points in his prime?

I mean he never had to face the likes of One time All Star Oladipo, future old timers game representative Lance Stephenson and a 22 year old Junior Sabonis......

Desi, make sure you also include when another starter failed to score in double figures and he led his team in assist and was one short of leading his team in rebounds too.

 

[GwinnettNole]

MJ is the GOAT. I think the real question is who is #2 in the modern era: Lebron or Kobe Bryant?

I laughed out loud when someone posted above who would be the better player in a 1:1 Shaq or Kobe. In a true back yard game I’d think Kobe would dominate. Not sure if Shaq could even dribble. But that’s the beauty of basketball— a team game where roles are filled.

 

[Fijimn]

MJ is the GOAT. I think the real question is who is #2 in the modern era: Lebron or Kobe Bryant?

I laughed out loud when someone posted above who would be the better player in a 1:1 Shaq or Kobe. In a true back yard game I’d think Kobe would dominate. Not sure if Shaq could even dribble. But that’s the beauty of basketball— a team game where roles are filled.

That isn’t much of a debate. Lebron is substantially better than Kobe 2.5 average of higher, 2 more assists. I think KB field goal is sub 500.

 

[NoleinATL]

I laughed out loud when someone posted above who would be the better player in a 1:1 Shaq or Kobe. In a true back yard game I’d think Kobe would dominate. Not sure if Shaq could even dribble. But that’s the beauty of basketball— a team game where roles are filled.

Can you expound on how Kobe would dominate Shaq?
Did you ever see Shaq play while he was in Orlando?
The guy had incredible hand skills for a guy that size, plus he was mean, and let people know he was mean.
There is not one person you or I have ever seen play that could back SO down.
In a 1 vs 1 situation the only way Kobe wins is if he as a career 45% shooter hits 11 in a row

 

[Fijimn]

Can you expound on how Kobe would dominate Shaq?
Did you ever see Shaq play while he was in Orlando?
The guy had incredible hand skills for a guy that size, plus he was mean, and let people know he was mean.
There is not one person you or I have ever seen play that could back SO down.
In a 1 vs 1 situation the only way Kobe wins is if he as a career 45% shooter hits 11 in a row

It would be very difficult for Shaq to drive on Kobe from the top without fouling. He would have to back it down and Kobe would likely punch it out a percentage of the time. It would not be a good one on one game; unless you are allowing shaq to start from the low block

 

[NoleinATL]

Boston is such an intriguing team without their two best players.

 

[Manch.]

The Celtics are young right now (not including the injuries to Hayward and Irving). Tatum and Ojeleye, both rookies, Rozier is in his 3rd year and Brown is in his 2nd (and now possibly hurt), all 4 started tonight.

The Sixers are young.

These two teams can be setting up some great playoff series for years to come, just like back in the early 80's.

 

[NoleinATL]

I know it is the biggest word , but IF Rajon Rondo could have hit a jumper consistently, all time top 5 PG.

 

[NoleinATL]

got them within 22, heck of a shot

 

[QuaZ2002]

MJ is the GOAT. I think the real question is who is #2 in the modern era: Lebron or Kobe Bryant?

I laughed out loud when someone posted above who would be the better player in a 1:1 Shaq or Kobe. In a true back yard game I’d think Kobe would dominate. Not sure if Shaq could even dribble. But that’s the beauty of basketball— a team game where roles are filled.

Kobe isn’t the player LeBron is. The only argument people have for that is 5 rings but Shaq was the best player on 3 of those teams. MJ and Kobe also never had to play against a machine like Golden State. Cleveland last year was good enough to win a title but they came up against an all time great team.

 

[NoleinATL]

Victor Oladipo has gone to another level this year...
very good game so far today

 

[NoleinATL]

That was a heck of a series..great game by Lebron and a HUGE contribution by reserves when Lebron was on bench at end of 3rd beginning of 4th..

 

[dmm5157]

I will say this about Lebron without hesitation, he's easily the best bounce back player ever. His teams have rarely lost back to back games in the playoffs since his string of NBA finals appearances began. And it's not just his team bouncing back, he takes the losses personally and his stats following losses in playoffs are almost always silly high. I've never seen anything like it.

 

[PoopandBoogers]

It would be very difficult for Shaq to drive on Kobe from the top without fouling. He would have to back it down and Kobe would likely punch it out a percentage of the time. It would not be a good one on one game; unless you are allowing shaq to start from the low block

 

[Ohio1nole]

I think people forget how mobile Shaq was in Orlando.

 

[Fijimn]

One- the gif is the definition of apples meeting oranges.

Two- people in Florida seem to forget how Hakeem showed the world how slow Shaq was in the low post

 

[PoopandBoogers]

 

[Fijimn]

I think people forget how mobile Shaq was in Orlando.

Good god... Dream abused Shaq.

 

[Fijimn]

Was that game 3 or game 4 of the sweep? Or easier answer, was that the start of 25 years of Orlando being a lottery team?

 

[PoopandBoogers]

Was that game 3 or game 4 of the sweep? Or easier answer, was that the start of 25 years of Orlando being a lottery team?

Fake news.

 

[Fijimn]

Fake news.

5th pick this year. Do y’all do a big lottery draft party down on Church St? Must be tiresome after so many years.