2018 NBA Playoffs-

[ReliableOstrich]

the base of the Warriors was assembled through the draft--Curry, Thompson & Green. That wasn't sufficient to beat Lebron--although Curry was allegedly not 100%--so they added another superstar with KD. It's not as if the Warriors signed the "Big Three" like Miami. So tough to "blame" anyone. The reality is that there are not a lt of really good players in the NBA these days. A lot of the lottery picks fizzle out or become JAGs.

If Green doesn't get suspended for game 5, the series very likely doesn't make it to game 7. Even in game 7 the Cavs needed a wild block from Lebron to win the game.

The core group (Steph, Klay, Dray) and their supporting cast (Livingston, Iggy, Barnes, Bogut) were good enough to beat the Cavs. A play or two and 1 technical foul were the difference.

That's all history though, the point I want to make is that if you're the GM of an organization and you can replace Harrison Barnes with KD, you do it, regardless of whether you just won a ring or not. They likely add KD even if they win.

 

[MIKE_G]

It's less of a "if you can't beat em, join em" thing than it is a "I'll never win anything with Russ" thing.

Once he realized he couldn't coexist w/ Russ, he had little choice but to leave and at that point he'd be naive not to go to the best team out there that could offer him max money - and he did exactly that.

I can understand how fans thing it's a wimp move and/or damages the sport but those things aren't his responsibility.

Why is all the "blame" on KD and not the GSW organization who won a record 73 games, lost a ring on a miracle block by LBJ, and then turned around and signed a top 3 player in the league a few weeks later. Didn't they damage the game and make a wimp move?

Full disclosure, I'm a Warriors fan and I admittedly felt a bit dirty when KD signed. I like him but wanted to win rings with the core squad. That said, I don't begrudge him or the organization one bit. Pro sports are a business and you play to win.

I'm not arguing, just explaining why the perception exists. I don't know about all the issues with Westbrook, although in retrospect it appears he's the root of the problem. Full disclosure, I'm not a fan of any NBA team these days.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

I'm not arguing, just explaining why the perception exists. I don't know about all the issues with Westbrook, although in retrospect it appears he's the root of the problem. Full disclosure, I'm not a fan of any NBA team these days.

Fair enough. I was just countering to say the perception, which I agree does exist, is based on a false and/or short-sighted narrative.

 

[Fijimn]

If Green doesn't get suspended for game 5, the series very likely doesn't make it to game 7. Even in game 7 the Cavs needed a wild block from Lebron to win the game.

The core group (Steph, Klay, Dray) and their supporting cast (Livingston, Iggy, Barnes, Bogut) were good enough to beat the Cavs. A play or two and 1 technical foul were the difference.

That's all history though, the point I want to make is that if you're the GM of an organization and you can replace Harrison Barnes with KD, you do it, regardless of whether you just won a ring or not. They likely add KD even if they win.

Oh - I agree with that. I am merely suggesting that the narrative that the Warriors are a paid-for assembled team is not accurate.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

Oh - I agree with that. I am merely suggesting that the narrative that the Warriors are a paid-for assembled team is not accurate.

Ah yes, I agree.

 

[Fijimn]

I'm not arguing, just explaining why the perception exists. I don't know about all the issues with Westbrook, although in retrospect it appears he's the root of the problem. Full disclosure, I'm not a fan of any NBA team these days.

I will say that the Warriors are very fun to watch. They move the ball very well and all the players are involved. Watching KD go one-on-one against anyone is amazing. Even Nick Young was shooting well.

 

[OrlandNole]

the base of the Warriors was assembled through the draft--Curry, Thompson & Green. That wasn't sufficient to beat Lebron--although Curry was allegedly not 100%--so they added another superstar with KD.

Except for 2015, when a pre-KD Warriors team beat the Cavs in six with a newly signed LeBron and Love "dream team."

 

[QuaZ2002]

It's less of a "if you can't beat em, join em" thing than it is a "I'll never win anything with Russ" thing.

Once he realized he couldn't coexist w/ Russ, he had little choice but to leave and at that point he'd be naive not to go to the best team out there that could offer him max money - and he did exactly that.

I can understand how fans thing it's a wimp move and/or damages the sport but those things aren't his responsibility.

Why is all the "blame" on KD and not the GSW organization who won a record 73 games, lost a ring on a miracle block by LBJ, and then turned around and signed a top 3 player in the league a few weeks later. Didn't they damage the game and make a wimp move?

Full disclosure, I'm a Warriors fan and I admittedly felt a bit dirty when KD signed. I like him but wanted to win rings with the core squad. That said, I don't begrudge him or the organization one bit. Pro sports are a business and you play to win.

OKC was up 3-1 in their series with GS in 2016. It wasn't some scenario in which they didn't have a chance vs the mighty Warriors. Durant and Russ both pissed down their leg up late in the 4th qtr of Game 6 at home. What most people are saying is, why not stick it out and make another run at GS instead of joining the very team he choked against. It would have been Jordan joining the Pistons or even LeBron joining the Celtics.

 

[QuaZ2002]

Except for 2015, when a pre-KD Warriors team beat the Cavs in six with a newly signed LeBron and Love "dream team."

Love didn't play in that series and Kyrie only played Game 1.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

OKC was up 3-1 in their series with GS in 2016. It wasn't some scenario in which they didn't have a chance vs the mighty Warriors. Durant and Russ both pissed down their leg up late in the 4th qtr of Game 6 at home. What most people are saying is, why not stick it out and make another run at GS instead of joining the very team he choked against. It would have been Jordan joining the Pistons or even LeBron joining the Celtics.

There's two questions to this that shouldn't be conflated into one...

Q1 - why leave OKC?
Q2 - why join GSW?

A1 - we don't know KD's exact thinking but based on signs (and passive/aggressive social media activity) it's safe to say he'd grown tired of Russ Westbrook. if the relationship became untenable, KD had two choices 1) suffer with Russ or 2) leave and get a fresh start. nothing about leaving is surprising or odd whatsoever. just one year later we saw Kyrie do nearly the same thing.

A2 - once the decision to leave was made, why not choose the team that gives you the best chance to win. where you also happen to have great chemistry with key players, several of whom embody the anti-Russ and will selflessly share for the greater good. not to mention a region that gives you significant business and personal growth opportunities. let's also not pretend there was a legitimate OKC-GSW rivalry like the Bulls-Pistons. KD was very friendly w/ the GSW guys off the court + playing on Team USA.

sports fans have this utterly misguided notion of fairy tale storylines where the hero returns home (the KD to the Wizards storyline) or stays in the humble small town to bring it glory (stay in OKC). this is ridiculous and selfish. sports are a business and these guys are humans who, like the rest of us, should seek out what's best for them, personally and professionally, and not be indebted to the selfish, delusional expectations of overzealous fans.

 

[seminoledq]

I was pretty disappointed with Houston last night. If they don't make some changes soon this is going to be a short series.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

I was pretty disappointed with Houston last night. If they don't make some changes soon this is going to be a short series.

I expect future games to be a bit more competitive. HOU bench shot horribly,

 

[OrlandNole]

Love didn't play in that series and Kyrie only played Game 1.

That's right, Love was injured. My bad.

 

[QuaZ2002]

There's two questions to this that shouldn't be conflated into one...

Q1 - why leave OKC?
Q2 - why join GSW?

A1 - we don't know KD's exact thinking but based on signs (and passive/aggressive social media activity) it's safe to say he'd grown tired of Russ Westbrook. if the relationship became untenable, KD had two choices 1) suffer with Russ or 2) leave and get a fresh start. nothing about leaving is surprising or odd whatsoever. just one year later we saw Kyrie do nearly the same thing.

A2 - once the decision to leave was made, why not choose the team that gives you the best chance to win. where you also happen to have great chemistry with key players, several of whom embody the anti-Russ and will selflessly share for the greater good. not to mention a region that gives you significant business and personal growth opportunities. let's also not pretend there was a legitimate OKC-GSW rivalry like the Bulls-Pistons. KD was very friendly w/ the GSW guys off the court + playing on Team USA.

sports fans have this utterly misguided notion of fairy tale storylines where the hero returns home (the KD to the Wizards storyline) or stays in the humble small town to bring it glory (stay in OKC). this is ridiculous and selfish. sports are a business and these guys are humans who, like the rest of us, should seek out what's best for them, personally and professionally, and not be indebted to the selfish, delusional expectations of overzealous fans.

This is all well and good but if Durant makes that decision he's due the criticism he's getting. Was LeBron going back to Cleveland to win a title an "utterly misguided notion"?

 

[ReliableOstrich]

This is all well and good but if Durant makes that decision he's due the criticism he's getting. Was LeBron going back to Cleveland to win a title an "utterly misguided notion"?

He's only due that criticism if we decide that it's acceptable for fans to form their opinions based on emotion, limited perspective, and an unrealistic expectation of what players owe them (nothing).

As for LBJ - it's what he wanted to do. That's his choice and it was a sentimental one. But it shouldn't be what was expected of him.

Hindsight 20/20, his sentimentality was a poor guide. He likely would have been better off going to a more attractive team with better ownership / management / cap structure that would set him up in a position to win long term.

Hopefully he makes the right decision this July and gets the heck out of dodge and lands on a real title contender that gives him a legit shot at 2-3 more rings before it's quitting time. Maybe he should pop up in Boston Kyrie would love it.

 

[QuaZ2002]

He's only due that criticism if we decide that it's acceptable for fans to form their opinions based on emotion, limited perspective, and an unrealistic expectation of what players owe them (nothing).

As for LBJ - it's what he wanted to do. That's his choice and it was a sentimental one. But it shouldn't be what was expected of him.

Hindsight 20/20, his sentimentality was a poor guide. He likely would have been better off going to a more attractive team with better ownership / management / cap structure that would set him up in a position to win long term.

Hopefully he makes the right decision this July and gets the heck out of dodge and lands on a real title contender that gives him a legit shot at 2-3 more rings before it's quitting time. Maybe he should pop up in Boston Kyrie would love it.

I don't agree at all that players don't owe the fans anything. This is the misguided opinion that LeBatard always spews. Fans ARE the customers. I'm not saying he should do whatever the fans want but the players absolutely do owe the fans, it's why he makes probably $50MM/year after endorsements. And yes, I realize that him going to GS isn't ending the NBAs popularity, but the more stuff like that happens the less people are going to tune in. Ratings for a potential GS-Boston series will not be good, and that ultimately matters in the big picture.

 

[Fijimn]

I expect future games to be a bit more competitive. HOU bench shot horribly,

Hopefully. Gerald Green looked completely lost. Bahm Mu Ta

I don't agree at all that players don't owe the fans anything. This is the misguided opinion that LeBatard always spews. Fans ARE the customers. I'm not saying he should do whatever the fans want but the players absolutely do owe the fans, it's why he makes probably $50MM/year after endorsements. And yes, I realize that him going to GS isn't ending the NBAs popularity, but the more stuff like that happens the less people are going to tune in. Ratings for a potential GS-Boston series will not be good, and that ultimately matters in the big picture.

I would suggest ownership/management owes the fans and labor does not.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

I don't agree at all that players don't owe the fans anything. This is the misguided opinion that LeBatard always spews. Fans ARE the customers. I'm not saying he should do whatever the fans want but the players absolutely do owe the fans, it's why he makes probably $50MM/year after endorsements. And yes, I realize that him going to GS isn't ending the NBAs popularity, but the more stuff like that happens the less people are going to tune in. Ratings for a potential GS-Boston series will not be good, and that ultimately matters in the big picture.

Players owe the fans a good show on the court, respectful behavior and some smiles off it.

Beyond that, there's a disproportionate weight society places on the shoulders' of these players in terms of their obligation to fans. Once the contract is done, if the player and management can't come to an agreement, the player owes the fans nothing, not even a polite instagram post bidding their fair city adieu unless they feel compelled to do so.

The NBA is responsible for its ratings and if ownership feels these types of moves are bad for the bottom line, they should address and negotiate it with the NBAPA in the next CBA. Until then there's no obligation on the players, in fact it's entirely on management.

 

[dmm5157]

I expect future games to be a bit more competitive. HOU bench shot horribly,

If Houston doesn't win tomorrow, it's a sweep. They have a quitter's mentality with Harden and CP3. If they get behind, they will fold and it will turn ugly. It's hard enough to win @ GS if you are mentally tough.

 

[GwinnettNole]

[QUOTE="QuaZ2002, post: 3678053, member: 2420". Ratings for a potential GS-Boston series will not be good, and that ultimately matters in the big picture.[/QUOTE]

That's a good point about ratings. The NBA has to change something that allows three superstars on the same team. I lost a lot of interest with the snoozefest last night. Can you imagine the ratings if Durant and Westbrook continued to get better each year, taking on Houston and GS. It would be a lot more fun that it is...

There is supposed to be a salary cap-- what happened? Is Durant being underpaid?

Nothing will change my mind to the thought that Durant took the easy way out. It would have been like Charles Barkley or Patrick Ewing joining the bulls after the lost to Detroit in the playoffs (before the bulls run). Those things just didn't happen.... Even Peyton Manning agrees

 

[dmm5157]

[QUOTE="QuaZ2002, post: 3678053, member: 2420". Ratings for a potential GS-Boston series will not be good, and that ultimately matters in the big picture.

That's a good point about ratings. The NBA has to change something that allows three superstars on the same team. I lost a lot of interest with the snoozefest last night. Can you imagine the ratings if Durant and Westbrook continued to get better each year, taking on Houston and GS. It would be a lot more fun that it is...

There is supposed to be a salary cap-- what happened? Is Durant being underpaid?

Nothing will change my mind to the thought that Durant took the easy way out. It would have been like Charles Barkley or Patrick Ewing joining the bulls after the lost to Detroit in the playoffs (before the bulls run). Those things just didn't happen.... Even Peyton Manning agrees
[/QUOTE]

Couple of things about the salary cap.

1. The changes to affect "super teams" has ben enacted, but nothing says players cannot take less to sign with a team.

2. The Warriors have committed supermax contract to Steph Curry. He's making $35 million this year, and that steps up every year until 2021-22 season, when he'll be making $45 million a year. KD's contract is up after next year, as is Klay Thompson's.

Warriors will be hurting come next season, when Curry's deal actually takes toll on payroll (1st season in supermax contract means contract doesn't count against team). The team payroll for next season is already up to $128 million, well over the projected salary cap for next year, and they only have 8 players signed (assuming they don't make any moves in pre-season).

Interestingly, players are showing time and time again that they will consider taking less money and go to a team of their choice, rather than take max deals with their small-market teams (see Paul George and Gordon Hayward).

As long as players can be underpaid for their abilities, "super teams" will be a possibility. What that tells us is that money isn't everything and players may still prefer moving to certain markets and taking less money over staying in smaller markets, or staying on underperforming teams.

 

[ReliableOstrich]

Playing on a winning team in a major market with a lower salary can net you more cash and happiness than getting paid big bucks on a mediocre team, with mediocre mgmt, in a mediocre town.

I don’t like players taking anything less than the highest salaries they can muster as I think it’s incumbent on them to make management pay up, however I appreciate that they’re willing to sacrifice salary to be where they want to be and essentially have more say in calling their own shots.

 

[GwinnettNole]

Playing on a winning team in a major market with a lower salary can net you more cash and happiness than getting paid big bucks on a mediocre team, with mediocre mgmt, in a mediocre town.

I don’t like players taking anything less than the highest salaries they can muster as I think it’s incumbent on them to make management pay up, however I appreciate that they’re willing to sacrifice salary to be where they want to be and essentially have more say in calling their own shots.

I guess the players' mindset has changed some. Chance to play for a championship > higher pay?
If that is the case its a difference in mindset when compared to the 90's. Who remembers Shaq seeing what Alonzo Mourning was going to be paid in Miami-- thus one of the reasons he left Orlando.

I did see an article recently about Durant's salary (the headline implied he wasn't happy) but didn't read it....

 

[hatsbo]

Celtics impressed again last night, but they have yet to be competitive on the road. Let's hope they can figure it out. I'm not crazy about this three day break either, gotta strike while the iron is hot.

 

[OrlandNole]

I wonder what the total compens

I guess the players' mindset has changed some. Chance to play for a championship > higher pay?
If that is the case its a difference in mindset when compared to the 90's. Who remembers Shaq seeing what Alonzo Mourning was going to be paid in Miami-- thus one of the reasons he left Orlando.

I did see an article recently about Durant's salary (the headline implied he wasn't happy) but didn't read it....

I wonder what the proportion of salary is to overall compensation (including endorsements) is for top tier players.

In other words, is it a big deal for a top player to forego an additional $5-10 million in salary to go to a major market if they're getting a $100 million shoe deal?

 

[ReliableOstrich]

I guess the players' mindset has changed some. Chance to play for a championship > higher pay?
If that is the case its a difference in mindset when compared to the 90's. Who remembers Shaq seeing what Alonzo Mourning was going to be paid in Miami-- thus one of the reasons he left Orlando.

I did see an article recently about Durant's salary (the headline implied he wasn't happy) but didn't read it....

To an extent, it's not like these guys are taking huge paycuts. Certainly you give up some immediate money when you don't stay w/ current team for a supermax extension but if you sign a short term deal w/ the new team you'll be able to re-up at a supermax in not too long.

What you give up you likely recoup in endorsement and branding opportunity.

Certainly "Kevin Durant Inc." is worth more in the SF Bay Area with 1 ring, 1 finals MVP, and another potentially on the way than it would be in OKC with 0 rings, 0 finals MVPs.

As for Shaq, the CBA was different back then, also his reasons were multiple:
- beef with corch Hill
- growing beef w/ Penny who thought it should be his team and he should make more
- coming off two playoff sweeps (Houston in finals 95, Chicago in eastern conf finals 96)
- Orlando media slandering him for having child w/ girlfriend and not being married
- Orlando media publishing poll that 91% of fans thought he wasn't worth the $ in proposed contract extension, which Team USA players then teased him about
- Los Angeles isn't exactly a backwater team, which he felt Orlando was ("Big fish in a small dry pond" was Shaq's quote)

He chose right. He wound up winning rings in LA in addition to increasing his salary and revenue opportunities.

Choosing a competitive major market team is almost always better than a semi competitive mid-major. The only mid-major city to even consider staying in is San Antonio as long as they have Pop. The rest should probably be spurned asap.

 

[seminoledq]

Celtics impressed again last night, but they have yet to be competitive on the road. Let's hope they can figure it out. I'm not crazy about this three day break either, gotta strike while the iron is hot.

The breaks in the NBA Playoffs are stupid. They should be playing every other night, putting a game on in prime-time night for at least 8 nights. Hockey playoffs do it right.

 

[OrlandNole]

The breaks in the NBA Playoffs are stupid. They should be playing every other night, putting a game on in prime-time night for at least 8 nights. Hockey playoffs do it right.

The NBA playoffs started on April 14th and could possibly extend into mid-June, almost two months.

Is there a league with a longer post-season than the NBA?

 

[ReliableOstrich]

The NBA playoffs started on April 14th and could possibly extend into mid-June, almost two months.

Is there a league with a longer post-season than the NBA?

Probably not but it's also a 16 team playoff.

I'm always sad the day the NBA playoffs end because it means no sports for me until late August (I'm not into baseball), so I'm content for the playoffs to drag into July.

 

[Fijimn]

Must win for the Rockets tonight. If they lose, they ware going to get swept because CP3 and Harden will pack it in. Frankly, they really need to win the next two games to have a puncher's chance on winning.

 

[dmm5157]

Must win for the Rockets tonight. If they lose, they ware going to get swept because CP3 and Harden will pack it in. Frankly, they really need to win the next two games to have a puncher's chance on winning.

I'm looking forward to the meltdown honestly. If Houston doesn't get ahead early, could be a blowout

 

[Fijimn]

I'm looking forward to the meltdown honestly. If Houston doesn't get ahead early, could be a blowout

San Antonio is always going to hate after Dream abused David Robinson--just made him look sad after he won league MVP.

 

[Fijimn]

And the refs take over at the end of the first-half blowout to make sure the golden team stays in it. I guess when Lebron looks to be out of the finals they need GS.

 

[Bobcat07]

Not playing Ryan Anderson and Nene was addition by subtraction tonight. Also, Tucker and Ariza bouncing back was nice. A 1-1 series heading to California was what I expected going into the series. But I think it’s pivotal the Rockets needing to win Game 3 on Sunday to have a chance to win this series.

 

[dmm5157]

San Antonio is always going to hate after Dream abused David Robinson--just made him look sad after he won league MVP.

View embedded media

No, don't hate Houston for that. Great team, great player.

Spurs have done just fine since then, I'm just not CP3 and Harden fan. They're biotch players, to be honest. Good, but mentally fragile.

 

[Fijimn]

No, don't hate Houston for that. Great team, great player.

Spurs have done just fine since then, I'm just not CP3 and Harden fan. They're biotch players, to be honest. Good, but mentally fragile.

Tim Duncan was easily the worst of the "biotch" players. Even in college, when he came down to the Civic Center, he would argue that he never fouled anyone and he was always fouled--that carried on to S.A. Strange that a S.A. fan would not see that...

 

[dmm5157]

Tim Duncan was easily the worst of the "biotch" players. Even in college, when he came down to the Civic Center, he would argue that he never fouled anyone and he was always fouled--that carried on to S.A. Strange that a S.A. fan would not see that...

I wasn't talking about biotch players as in complaining, I'm talkin about being a poor team mate. I've never seen Tim Duncan bitch at other players on the bench and quit like I've seen CP3 and Harden do over their careers.

Complaining, sure. They all do that. I'm talking about being mentally fragile and quitting on your team. That's Harden and CP3 to a T.

 

[Fijimn]

I wasn't talking about biotch players as in complaining, I'm talkin about being a poor team mate. I've never seen Tim Duncan bitch at other players on the bench and quit like I've seen CP3 and Harden do over their careers.

Complaining, sure. They all do that. I'm talking about being mentally fragile and quitting on your team. That's Harden and CP3 to a T.

Maybe...everyone thought they would shut it down after Game 1.

 

[dmm5157]

Maybe...everyone thought they would shut it down after Game 1.

Give them time. Maybe I'm wrong, but I've seen this show before from them. Will see how they do when they go on the road. Splitting at home is hardly an achievement. I figured they'd fold if they got behind in this game, which didn't happen. They haven't faced much adversity this season, so will see.

 

[seminoledq]

Not playing Ryan Anderson and Nene was addition by subtraction tonight. Also, Tucker and Ariza bouncing back was nice. A 1-1 series heading to California was what I expected going into the series. But I think it’s pivotal the Rockets needing to win Game 3 on Sunday to have a chance to win this series.

I agree with this. If they win game 3 they'll be able to stay in the series but if they lose, I'm not sure they'll win another game in the series. I was impressed with how they made every necessary change to win last night. GS will make adjustments to that for the next game so we'll see what D'Antoni does.