Yearly article- Tallahassee man missing (Mike Williams)

[JohnnieHolmesNole]

From TDO:

Mike Williams’ body was found Oct. 18, buried in six feet of muck near the primitive boat landing at the dead end of Gardner Road in north Leon County, a law enforcement source told the Tallahassee Democrat.

FDLE officials would not confirm how Williams was killed, only that evidence proved conclusively he was murdered. The source said his body and clothing were still intact. He was wearing cold weather gloves on his hands and outdoor booties on his feet.

On Oct. 12, acting on new information, FDLE investigators began work to excavate Gardner Road landing. Leon County Public Works officials first cleared the heavily wooded area of trees and installed water dams and pumps to hold back adjacent Carr Lake.

They were looking not far from where 10 years ago this week, Tallahassee Police confidential informant Rachel Hoffman was killed. When that drug sting went fatally wrong, Mike Williams’ body had been buried there for nearly eight years.

For the next five days, county workers, FDLE investigators, cadaver dogs and their handlers – about 30 people and dogs in all – worked up to 16 hours a day sifting and searching through thick mud, dumping scoop after backhoe scoop onto 10 huge sheets of plywood.

A few neighbors ventured near the area, curious what was going on, but they were satisfied with the explanation that all the activity was just part of a training exercise.

“How was it kept a secret? By the grace of God,” the law enforcement source said. “There is literally no other explanation.”

Not even the workers operating the machinery knew initially what they were looking for. Just the man running the bucket figured it out by the end. They were digging for that boy who’d gone missing while hunting all those years ago.

The work was arduous. Holding back the lake was a constant challenge. Water moccasins and eels menaced the 9-foot deep holes that quickly filled with murky water.

“It was a nasty, wicked place,” the source said.

By Oct 18, Public Works officials were ready to call it quits. FDLE was set to hire a private company to continue the work when they finally found Williams. Two DNA tests proved it was him.

“About 98 percent of his bones were recovered,” said the source. The remains were “very well preserved.”

This will make for some devastating courtroom testimony. I am sure there is photographic and video footage to reflect all of it. I doubt that Denise was personally involved in dumping and burying the body, but she is going to be painted with a VERY ugly brush at trial. All of this to recover on some life insurance policies, and-or to formalize a relationship with hubby’s (alleged) best friend?? Wow. Jury is going to hate that witch.

 

[Buddy Green]

Regarding the above story, they first went out to Carr Lake with a description of where they would find the body. They dug in some places that fit the description but didn't find him. They then had to take Brian out there so he could lead them to the spot. At this point, the workers 100% knew what they were looking for and all had previously signed NDAs anyway. Since the article above mentions crime scene info, I'll say what I was told which kind of conflicts with the story above - the skeleton was in tact but was wearing only a t-shirt and underwear. The person who told me said nothing about gloves and boots. The state of dress was one of the things that stood out the most he said.

 

[Buddy Green]

This will make for some devastating courtroom testimony. I am sure there is photographic and video footage to reflect all of it. I doubt that Denise was personally involved in dumping and burying the body, but she is going to be painted with a VERY ugly brush at trial. All of this to recover on some life insurance policies, and-or to formalize a relationship with hubby’s (alleged) best friend?? Wow. Jury is going to hate that witch.

Based upon what I was told in February regarding the possibility of charges and how long it could take, I have a hunch they have more than Brian's word and someone else is cooperating now that they know Mike was murdered. We'll know soon because they will have to release it to the defense. The DA responded to her attorney on tv yesterday by saying "he doesn't know what we have.", so, its got to be more than just Brian saying she was involved.

 

[JohnnieHolmesNole]

Based upon what I was told in February regarding the possibility of charges and how long it could take, I have a hunch they have more than Brian's word and someone else is cooperating now that they know Mike was murdered. We'll know soon because they will have to release it to the defense. The DA responded to her attorney on tv yesterday by saying "he doesn't know what we have.", so, its got to be more than just Brian saying she was involved.

No question. He is getting a free pass from the state, so I suspect he was required to fork over all kinds of scoop that only a husband/accomplice would know. He may have specific times of phone calls that would clearly implicate Denise, and there may be texts, emails or God-knows-what that are even more damning.

I would bet a fair chunk of change that Winchester has provided way more information than simply “she was in on it.”

 

[DanC78]

No question. He is getting a free pass from the state, so I suspect he was required to fork over all kinds of scoop that only a husband/accomplice would know. He may have specific times of phone calls that would clearly implicate Denise, and there may be texts, emails or God-knows-what that are even more damning.

I would bet a fair chunk of change that Winchester has provided way more information than simply “she was in on it.”

Or it could be a strategic play by DA to mess with their head and rattle their cage...a bluff.

But if I were a betting man, they would absolutely have to gain pieces of objective evidence that places her physically there at time of death, or in the very least, orchestrated the murder. If DA doesn’t already have this in his pocket, this trial could be a gigantic shite show....which will be GREAT for television!!!

 

[JohnnieHolmesNole]

Or it could be a strategic play by DA to mess with their head and rattle their cage...a bluff.

But if I were a betting man, they would absolutely have to gain pieces of objective evidence that places her physically there at time of death, or in the very least, orchestrated the murder. If DA doesn’t already have this in his pocket, this trial could be a gigantic shite show....which will be GREAT for television!!!

The Leon County State Attorneys’ Office is still recovering from 40 years of Willie Meggs’ horrific “leadership,” so there is still plenty of buffoonery in those hallways. But I would still be shocked if even that office would give immunity to Winchester — which it has apparently agreed to do — without a pretty damned tight case against the new target. We shall see.

 

[DanC78]

The Leon County State Attorneys’ Office is still recovering from 40 years of Willie Meggs’ horrific “leadership,” so there is still plenty of buffoonery in those hallways. But I would still be shocked if even that office would give immunity to Winchester — which it has apparently agreed to do — without a pretty damned tight case against the new target. We shall see.

Immunity? I don’t know about that. Not unless he didn’t have anything to do with the murder, learned about after the fact, and then helped with the cover up. Perhaps then he would get some type of immunity. But if he was in on the actual planning, or was responsible for the death...i don’t see how they could give him immunity. He’d have to serve some sort of resonable time:..at least 7 years maybe...just my opinion.

 

[DanC78]

I have a feeling this thread is going to destroy the Jimbo to ATM thread...long as it doesn’t get locked.

 

[JohnnieHolmesNole]

Immunity? I don’t know about that. Not unless he didn’t have anything to do with the murder, learned about after the fact, and then helped with the cover up. Perhaps then he would get some type of immunity. But if he was in on the actual planning, or was responsible for the death...i don’t see how they could give him immunity. He’d have to serve some sort of resonable time:..at least 7 years maybe...just my opinion.

This happens all of the time, as unseemly as it may be. It is more common in "cold cases" like this, where, without some kind of deal/cooperation, no one will ever be punished. Tim Jansen has made some comments that seem to indicate that a deal has been made, but I guess we will see what unfolds.

 

[runkpanole]

I have a feeling this thread is going to destroy the Jimbo to ATM thread...long as it doesn’t get locked.

Only 50 pages behind.

 

[Buddy Green]

Keep in mind that the murder occurred in 2000 and nobody really got suspicious until four or five years later. There was no text messaging back then, cell phones were still kind of uncommon and they can't get records from back then anyway. Its highly unlikely he has "records" that prove she was involved. Payment records on the life insurance policies are reportedly some of the evidence they believe tie her to knowledge of the crime. But somebody else has to be backing his story at this point or they couldn't have gotten an indictment(if they could have gotten an indictment with just his word, they could have indicted her last year as soon as they had the DNA test back.)

Also, anyone think about how stupid it is to kill someone at one location, move the body somewhere else, then invite friends, family and law enforcement to the actual crime scene the next day to look for him? This just doesn't square with me. If you set up such a plot, wouldn't the last place you would want to lead investigators to is the actual crime scene? Many questions here still.

 

[DanC78]

Lots to think about.

I hope this makes it to trial and they don’t strike a deal with her....for my own selfish reasons

 

[Buddy Green]

This happens all of the time, as unseemly as it may be. It is more common in "cold cases" like this, where, without some kind of deal/cooperation, no one will ever be punished. Tim Jansen has made some comments that seem to indicate that a deal has been made, but I guess we will see what unfolds.

I wouldn't be surprised if the deal is that he gets to serve the time for the kidnapping and this concurrently because they are "related". Which means he gets 20 and out and she gets life if convicted.

 

[JohnnieHolmesNole]

Keep in mind that the murder occurred in 2000 and nobody really got suspicious until four or five years later. There was no text messaging back then, cell phones were still kind of uncommon and they can't get records from back then anyway. Its highly unlikely he has "records" that prove she was involved. Payment records on the life insurance policies are reportedly some of the evidence they believe tie her to knowledge of the crime. But somebody else has to be backing his story at this point or they couldn't have gotten an indictment(if they could have gotten an indictment with just his word, they could have indicted her last year as soon as they had the DNA test back.)

Also, anyone think about how stupid it is to kill someone at one location, move the body somewhere else, then invite friends, family and law enforcement to the actual crime scene the next day to look for him? This just doesn't square with me. If you set up such a plot, wouldn't the last place you would want to lead investigators to is the actual crime scene? Many questions here still.

Very fair points, but I was thinking in terms of more recent communications that may reference the earlier crime. Denise could in 2017 or 2018 say or write something that constitutes an admission for things that happened in 2000. It seems to me they have something very tangible on her, and she may even be aware of it.

Her body language during the perp walk did not exactly scream "oh, wow, I am totally surprised by this, and I am being unfairly arrested." No, her mannerisms screamed "I am guilty as hell, and I know it."

 

[Buddy Green]

Lots to think about.

I hope this makes it to trial and they don’t strike a deal with her....for my own selfish reasons

My prediction: If the DA foolishly brought charges with nothing more than Brian's story, she goes to trial and is acquitted of 1DM and maybe gets convicted on the other two. If there are other cooperating witnesses, she tells her attorney to try to get her a plea deal that includes the possibility of parole because they will have a hard time convincing a jury that everybody is lying.

 

[dero316]

I see all this stuff about a "perp walk" but nothing about that video really stands out to me. She's being walked through a couple photographers and video cameras and is trying to keep her face down/turned.

What should she be doing? Crying/screaming/proclaiming her innocence after 17yrs? Seems like all those things would look worse.

 

[GwinnettNole]

@GwinnettNole is the man. I am just passing through. But once I saw this woman’s mug shot — and the perp walk — I knew immediately she was guilty. This is going to make a hell of a movie. But what a horrible event for the daughter, Mike’s mother and Denise’s parents (assuming they are still alive).

@Buddy Green is the man guys..... love that he is around!

 

[GwinnettNole]

My sister just calls "I wonder if Denise regrets calling the police on Brian now".... exact same thing I asked to this group a few months/ pages ago. Its crazy that Brian holds the cards now.... Damn

 

[GwinnettNole]

Same small road Rachel Hoffman was killed on. He was buried at the end of Gardner Rd.

The two Tally murder cases that got national attention and both involved this narrow short little road.

I visited the spot where he was buried last December. They had to pull so many trees, dirt and rock out like they were building a new neighborhood. He was placed in a spot no one would have ever found.

 

[GwinnettNole]

I see all this stuff about a "perp walk" but nothing about that video really stands out to me. She's being walked through a couple photographers and video cameras and is trying to keep her face down/turned.

What should she be doing? Crying/screaming/proclaiming her innocence after 17yrs? Seems like all those things would look worse.

Yeah I'm struggling with this one too. Given the circumstances I'm not sure what the body language should say. The cool demeanor and head down + the mug shot are more like a stone cold robot.

However, if she went into panic mode, crying and they had to drag her out of there while she was in hysteria I guess I would think there was more to her being "someone who didn't do it".

 

[JohnnieHolmesNole]

My sister just calls "I wonder if Denise regrets calling the police on Brian now".... exact same thing I asked to this group a few months/ pages ago. Its crazy that Brian holds the cards now.... Damn

Pretty sure this will now be part of her defense. I mean, “had I truly been involved, would I have contacted the police and invited their scrutiny?” The story will go that she legitimately and understandably called the cops concerning the kidnapping. Brian was then convicted, and his “payback” was making up this atrocious lie about me being involved in Brian’s murder.

That HAS to be her story, although I suspect she stays conveniently away from the witness stand to “tell it.”

 

[cfbfan23]

If they ever make a Lifetime movie about this, Helen Hunt's got the wife's part on lockdown.

 

[GwinnettNole]

Wow.
Don't live in Tally anymore but went to high school with them. Knew all the siblings and in 2 of the cases the families. Knowing all of them this has all been shocking for the last 17 yrs.

It's unbelievable isn't it? Denise comes from a good family, that is well respected and known throughout Tallahassee. Meanwhile, Mike comes from a family whose dad was a bus diver and they lived in a small trailer/home off of a road in north Tallahassee. His family was kind, considerate, hard working and respectful. Mike played football at NFC and Denise was on the homecoming court. They both did the Gayfers department store teen board (or whatever it was called back then). They all went to Thomasville Road Baptist church.

Brian Winchester (who I briefly met one time) has been described as a hot head that would always fly off the handle.
If you would ever think it ended like this you should go play the lottery.

 

[JohnnieHolmesNole]

I see all this stuff about a "perp walk" but nothing about that video really stands out to me. She's being walked through a couple photographers and video cameras and is trying to keep her face down/turned.

What should she be doing? Crying/screaming/proclaiming her innocence after 17yrs? Seems like all those things would look worse.

There are large bodies of literature on perp walks. Prosecutors generally like them because they tend to infect the masses with the idea that the shackled defendant is guilty. I think most of us would agree that nothing about this woman's perp walk demeanor HELPED her. You and others may view it as a neutral, which is fine. But others will have the same take-away I did (i.e., this woman is acting like I would expect a guilty person to act).

You can be confident that the perp walk was very much intentional and orchestrated. Those TV film crews and photographers did not just happen to be at Doak Campbell that afternoon. And the police cruiser was intentionally parked 50-100 yards from where she started. There was no effort to discretely pick her up in the bowels of Doak, out of plain view.

 

[BoNoles]

I visited the spot where he was buried last December. They had to pull so many trees, dirt and rock out like they were building a new neighborhood. He was placed in a spot no one would have ever found.

My morbid curiosity led me there as well (granted I live nearby and fish Carr) soon after and I was surprised there was nobody down there. There were just a lot of fresh tracks and the obvious work they did. There used to be an old abandoned house at that dead end and back then were less places to hide a vehicle because the land wasn't as cleared out.

That's why I thought it was a risky place for them to bury him. If someone comes down that hill (or up the road) back in the day they would basically be right up on you with nowhere for you to hide. Even if you walked into the woods / swampy area, you still had to park you car there.

There are plenty of wooded areas around that you run a lot lower risk of someone driving up while you are burying a body. But they obviously buried it without detection.

My mom knows MIke's mom and I grew up down the road from where Mike grew up (I didn't know Mike though) - so I've followed this for years hoping for them to solve it. It was shocking they found him right near where I fished all these years and only a few miles from Bull Headley where Mike's mom sadly walked for years.

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

I can't imagine living with such a secret. Reminds me of the movie A Simple Plan and all the aftermath trying to hide something and the constant paranoia about if and when you'll ultimately be caught.

 

[BoNoles]

I see all this stuff about a "perp walk" but nothing about that video really stands out to me. She's being walked through a couple photographers and video cameras and is trying to keep her face down/turned.

What should she be doing? Crying/screaming/proclaiming her innocence after 17yrs? Seems like all those things would look worse.

That's not why I'm convinced. The fact that she pushed to get him declared dead ASAP and the fact that she cut Mike's mom off after she wouldn't let it go and buy the fake alligator story tells me all I need to know. And oh yeah, she marries his best friend who sold him the life insurance policy. Helen Keller can see what happened.

 

[GwinnettNole]

I can't imagine living with such a secret. Reminds me of the movie A Simple Plan and all the aftermath trying to hide something and the constant paranoia about if and when you'll ultimately be caught.

YES

 

[GwinnettNole]

Guys I've been emailing back and forth with Jennifer Portman, of the Tallahassee Democrat. She has been the beat writer for years on this case and frankly has been a big help in keeping it alive.

In regards to which TV Show gets first dibs-- I was suggesting Dateline:

"It is a hell of a story. Unfortunately, 48 Hours grabbed me first (months ago, in fact). Once they air their show on the case (not sure when that will be) I would be glad to help, but I can’t before."

 

[DanC78]

Guys I've been emailing back and forth with Jennifer Portman, of the Tallahassee Democrat. She has been the beat writer for years on this case and frankly has been a big help in keeping it alive.

In regards to which TV Show gets first dibs-- I was suggesting Dateline:

"It is a hell of a story. Unfortunately, 48 Hours grabbed me first (months ago, in fact). Once they air their show on the case (not sure when that will be) I would be glad to help, but I can’t before."

So she is saying Dateline reached out and she no, and the reason for that is because 48 Hours has dibs and she can't move on anything until they play their piece?

 

[LauderdaleNole]

My sister just calls "I wonder if Denise regrets calling the police on Brian now".... exact same thing I asked to this group a few months/ pages ago. Its crazy that Brian holds the cards now.... Damn

...plus going before a judge and demanding he be locked up for life!

 

[LauderdaleNole]

Since the article above mentions crime scene info, I'll say what I was told which kind of conflicts with the story above - the skeleton was in tact but was wearing only a t-shirt and underwear. The person who told me said nothing about gloves and boots. The state of dress was one of the things that stood out the most he said.

This conflicts with the previously mentioned "going home sick to find the wife in bed with another man" theory. T-shirt and underwear suggests he was killed in his sleep...unless he was getting undressed to join in.

 

[JohnnieHolmesNole]

That's not why I'm convinced. The fact that she pushed to get him declared dead ASAP and the fact that she cut Mike's mom off after she wouldn't let it go and buy the fake alligator story tells me all I need to know. And oh yeah, she marries his best friend who sold him the life insurance policy. Helen Keller can see what happened.

These facts, alone, are hard to overcome. The jury will especially despise her for cutting off the grandmother’s contact with with the child. I know she will say the grandmother was crazy, and she was protecting the little girl. But that isn’t going to hold up factually, and how do you even tell it without taking the stand? Wonder how Denise is sleeping in the lock-up??

 

[BoNoles]

This conflicts with the previously mentioned "going home sick to find the wife in bed with another man" theory. T-shirt and underwear suggests he was killed in his sleep...unless he was getting undressed to join in.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I've always believed they killed him late that night or early morning, then staged the scene at the lake in the AM.

I don't think he made it to that lake. Someone else drove his truck/boat there first thing in the AM and abandoned his boat.

 

[BoNoles]

These facts, alone, are hard to overcome. The jury will especially despise her for cutting off the grandmother’s contact with with the child. I know she will say the grandmother was crazy, and she was protecting the little girl. But that isn’t going to hold up factually, and how do you even tell it without taking the stand? Wonder how Denise is sleeping in the lock-up??

But I do agree with you - her look says it all. She has that cold killer look, and that personality was confirmed by detectives who knew her. "coldest person I've ever met" was the quote.

Some thinks she gets off, but I don't. They have him testifying against her and circumstantial evidence and common sense tells you what happened.

Her pushing to get him declared dead so quickly shows her intention and what the plan was.

There are large bodies of literature on perp walks. Prosecutors generally like them because they tend to infect the masses with the idea that the shackled defendant is guilty. I think most of us would agree that nothing about this woman's perp walk demeanor HELPED her. You and others may view it as a neutral, which is fine. But others will have the same take-away I did (i.e., this woman is acting like I would expect a guilty person to act).

You can be confident that the perp walk was very much intentional and orchestrated. Those TV film crews and photographers did not just happen to be at Doak Campbell that afternoon. And the police cruiser was intentionally parked 50-100 yards from where she started. There was no effort to discretely pick her up in the bowels of Doak, out of plain view.

Excellent points

 

[Buddy Green]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I've always believed they killed him late that night or early morning, then staged the scene at the lake in the AM.

I don't think he made it to that lake. Someone else drove his truck/boat there first thing in the AM and abandoned his boat.

That was always my theory to(and law enforcement's). FDLE said that if the boat had been launched that evening, a storm should have pushed it to the other side, but it was on the landing side. Further, his jeep was a long way away from the launch; too far for one person to drag the boat.

If what I was told about his state of dress is true(and its entirely possible the person just didn't mention gloves and boots), I assumed he might have arrived home, taken off his hunting clothes in the laundry/mud room/garage and then entered the house... Or maybe he was at Lake Seminole, and was changing into his overall waders.... But if that's the case, why did they have to go back later and plant fake waders? Why didn't they have his actual waders? FDLE said what was found was "pristine" and appeared to have never been used. Had he just bought a new pair? I have no idea, but its always been an odd tidbit.

 

[Squirrel J.]

If what I was told about his state of dress is true(and its entirely possible the person just didn't mention gloves and boots), I assumed he might have arrived home, taken off his hunting clothes in the laundry/mud room/garage and then entered the house... Or maybe he was at Lake Seminole, and was changing into his overall waders.... But if that's the case, why did they have to go back later and plant fake waders? Why didn't they have his actual waders? FDLE said what was found was "pristine" and appeared to have never been used. Had he just bought a new pair? I have no idea, but its always been an odd tidbit.

Maybe they burned the original waders because they were covered in blood and gun powder.
But then they planted the others because it helped get the insurance money.
Like somebody said, no real text messaging back then, but I wonder if one of them held on to a piece of evidence (maybe the bloody waders and shotgun) that helps prove the other ones involvement?

 

[BoNoles]

That was always my theory to(and law enforcement's). FDLE said that if the boat had been launched that evening, a storm should have pushed it to the other side, but it was on the landing side. Further, his jeep was a long way away from the launch; too far for one person to drag the boat.

If what I was told about his state of dress is true(and its entirely possible the person just didn't mention gloves and boots), I assumed he might have arrived home, taken off his hunting clothes in the laundry/mud room/garage and then entered the house... Or maybe he was at Lake Seminole, and was changing into his overall waders.... But if that's the case, why did they have to go back later and plant fake waders? Why didn't they have his actual waders? FDLE said what was found was "pristine" and appeared to have never been used. Had he just bought a new pair? I have no idea, but its always been an odd tidbit.

Great point. I don't believe he made it to the lake.

They would've wanted to kill him in a controlled / safe environment, that would be his home not the lake.

You kill someone in your house nobody sees, you can't guarantee that at the lake during duck season.

This was planned out well in advance so it's not like they made a spontaneous decision to kill him and he happened to be at the lake.

 

[JohnnieHolmesNole]

It's unbelievable isn't it? Denise comes from a good family, that is well respected and known throughout Tallahassee. Meanwhile, Mike comes from a family whose dad was a bus diver and they lived in a small trailer/home off of a road in north Tallahassee. His family was kind, considerate, hard working and respectful. Mike played football at NFC and Denise was on the homecoming court. They both did the Gayfers department store teen board (or whatever it was called back then). They all went to Thomasville Road Baptist church.

Brian Winchester (who I briefly met one time) has been described as a hot head that would always fly off the handle.
If you would ever think it ended like this you should go play the lottery.

I read that Denise’s mom died in February of this year, and that her dad died in 2011-ish. She apparently has 4 siblings. Not sure what those relationships are like, but, in a sick way, her parents should be glad they do not have to deal with any of this.

 

[321Nole]

This conflicts with the previously mentioned "going home sick to find the wife in bed with another man" theory. T-shirt and underwear suggests he was killed in his sleep...unless he was getting undressed to join in.

Like squirrelJ said, could just be that his clothes had evidence on them that they wanted to destroy. Or he went home sick and went to sleep before they got to him.

It's also possible that the hole was dug beforehand. Seems like it would be tough to dig a 6 foot hole in those conditions and stage the boat scene in just a few hours.